Dawkins: At War With The Feminists?

[Nicko]

Like cancelling a date with : "I can't go out with you tonight, because John has asked me out. But I'll give you a ring, if he changes his mind."

OUCH!

[Ronja]

Dev, you seem to have missed my point completely here http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 60#p910038

Feel free to try again, if you wish to acknowledge that a person's (man, woman, IS or TG) earlier experiences usually have an effect on how comfortable or uncomfortable they feel in a situation.

[Gallstones]

This guy just has terrible technique.

Meeting a chick in an elevator at the end of the night is not the last chance to pick up for the night. It is the first chance to pick up for the next day. What's wrong with offering to buy someone breakfast?

Non-threatening, easy-going. Says, "I want to get to know you." rather than, "I see you struck out as well. Wanna fuck?"

That's probably what upset her. He was in effect saying " I don't find you attractive enough to ask out on a date, but I wouldn't mind a quick fuck".

That's why she really felt insulted, she wasn't valued as highly as she felt she should have been.
That sort of thing isn't restricted to man-on-woman, women do the same thing to men.
Like cancelling a date with : "I can't go out with you tonight, because John has asked me out. But I'll give you a ring, if he changes his mind."

Uh-huh

[Gallstones]

If Dawkins had not posted all the retardedness, this whole thing would be a non-event.

[Nicko]

If Dawkins had not posted all the retardedness, this whole thing would be a non-event.

That's about it.

[DRSB]

A comment on the debate here:

2What's a shy, geeky, nice guy to do?: The case of Rebecca Watson"
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/bea ... cca-watson

[Coito ergo sum]

No. I am not concerned, I CAN JUST SEE THAT IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES IT WOULD MAKE SOME WOMEN FEEL A BIT THREATENED AND NOT VERY SAFE. Like it or not, rape happens. Females raping males is rare and biologically unlikely!!! Men DO rape women so women DO tend to be on their guard when alone and it's late and it's dark and there aren't many people around. Men that do NOT understand and appreciate this are autistic morons, I've found. DO YOU UNDERSTAND YET??? PROBABLY NOT. See recent DIAGNOSIS

Naturally, it has to be an inability to understand, and a mental condition.

Look - if getting on an elevator with some dork at an atheist conference is inherently threatening, then why would anyone in their right mind get on the elevator? Don't you see that under the circumstances presented by Skepchick, we're not talking about someone who was in the least ACTING threatening. We have a guy, according to Skepchick, who got on the elevator and had the temerity to ask her to his room for coffee and take an immediate no for an answer. He also called her "interesting."

If that is one of the circumstances where a woman feels a bit threatened, then there is no circumstance where a man can get on that elevator and NOT make her feel threatened. We even had one blogger, cited above, state that even if the guy had been completely silent and not said a word to her - that would have been also threatening. Am I supposed to understand that? If I don't, is it a function of my diagnosis?

Really - I mean - what lesson are men to take from this? If it's late and you are going to get on an elevator and a lone woman is also going to get on that same elevator, understand that your mere presence is threatening to her, or is very likely to be threatening to her?

[Coito ergo sum]

For the record, regardless of context, I--me--am not going to the hotel room of some guy I don't know and never met. I don't care what he says he wants to do there with me.

So, then if a guy asks you there for coffee, and you say no thanks, and he goes off on his merry way, has something misogynistic happened?

No.

Odd thing though, there are men who will say a woman's refusal of an advance is a refusal to submit to her role and is, in their perverse minds, misogynistic.

Those men are completely in the wrong.

If she refuses him has anything misandrous happened?

Absolutely nothing.

[Coito ergo sum]

When a woman says, "I don't like this. Don't do this" Fucking don't do it. Get it?

When a guy doesn't "do" anything, but merely asks her up for coffee, then he didn't do anything to stop doing. When she says "no" and he says "o.k., have a good night." Then nobody has done anything wrong. Get it?

Fuck you. You aren't paying any attention to what I get or don't get.

No need to get angry about this. You just said one post up that a guy asking a woman for coffee and taking no for an answer hasn't done anything wrong. And, the woman in question, Skepchick, did not tell him to not do something I don't like it, and then he went ahead and did it. The guy asked her for coffee, and then she said no. He moved on.

Don't call her frigid or a nut or a harpy.

You must be thinking of someone else.

Since I don't know you, I can't mean you, now can I?

I was referring to the actual events in question - Skepchick being asked for coffee. There was no allegation of her being called a frigid nut or a harpy.

When we say these things we are doing you a favor--it is so you can be successful in connecting or even hooking up. Make sense?

Not in the least. You're not talking about what actually happened in the incident in question. You're apparently referring to some other incident where someone was told that a woman didn't like something done to her, and refused to stop doing it. That has about as much to do with some guy asking a woman up to his room for coffee and her saying no, and he saying o.k., as a rabbit with a pancake on its head. Make sense?

Now I am talking about you--you don't get it.

You don't either, apparently.

[Coito ergo sum]

not automatically, no. I didn't say that, as well you know.

So, based on exactly what Skepchick said, what's the big deal about the dork asking her to his room for coffee? She said no. He left.

Big deal?

It was a non-event, until Dawkins chimed in.
Get that?

Apparently, Skepchick thought it was a big deal, something men needed to be lectured never to do - always improper.

Dawkins chimed in after she posted her video and after it became a public discussion. His input certainly expanded the pool of people interested in also commenting, and expanded the issue to be about the propriety of his comments too, but his post followed Skepchick, not vise versa.

Get that?

[Azathoth]

It is quite telling that in her blog she states that men should always wait for women to make the first move. Utter bollocks. Like most feminazis she doesn't want equality she wants special treatment. Fuck off

[Coito ergo sum]

No. I am not concerned, I CAN JUST SEE THAT IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES IT WOULD MAKE SOME WOMEN FEEL A BIT THREATENED AND NOT VERY SAFE. Like it or not, rape happens. Females raping males is rare and biologically unlikely!!! Men DO rape women so women DO tend to be on their guard when alone and it's late and it's dark and there aren't many people around. Men that do NOT understand and appreciate this are autistic morons, I've found. DO YOU UNDERSTAND YET??? PROBABLY NOT. See recent DIAGNOSIS

In certain circumstances yes, but this wasn't one of them.

Like most people who've posted, I really don't see why she thought it worth mentioning.

Here's the problem with Monday morning quarterbacking, none of us were there to witness body language, or affect or tone of voice or anything. We are all speculating and we can only speculate based on what we know and what we have experienced ourselves.

So, Skepchick left his threatening body language and evil tone of voice out of her description? Seems as if that might be an important fact to include. I think it's fair to say that the body language was not threatening and his tone of voice was not a problem since she didn't say they were.

Anger doesn't come from out of nowhere--so there is some fire with all this smoke.

What's the smoke, exactly?

And another thing, I'm fucking tired of being asked to be considerate of the feelings of the poor (allegedly) shy and socially awkward man--I have insecurities too, like for my personal safety.

So, then men ought not enter elevators with women alone, just in case that woman feels threatened by the potentiality that the man is a threat? What other viable option is there?

[Santa_Claus]

No. I am not concerned, I CAN JUST SEE THAT IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES IT WOULD MAKE SOME WOMEN FEEL A BIT THREATENED AND NOT VERY SAFE. Like it or not, rape happens. Females raping males is rare and biologically unlikely!!! Men DO rape women so women DO tend to be on their guard when alone and it's late and it's dark and there aren't many people around. Men that do NOT understand and appreciate this are autistic morons, I've found. DO YOU UNDERSTAND YET??? PROBABLY NOT. See recent DIAGNOSIS

Naturally, it has to be an inability to understand, and a mental condition.

Look - if getting on an elevator with some dork at an atheist conference is inherently threatening, then why would anyone in their right mind get on the elevator? Don't you see that under the circumstances presented by Skepchick, we're not talking about someone who was in the least ACTING threatening. We have a guy, according to Skepchick, who got on the elevator and had the temerity to ask her to his room for coffee and take an immediate no for an answer. He also called her "interesting."

If that is one of the circumstances where a woman feels a bit threatened, then there is no circumstance where a man can get on that elevator and NOT make her feel threatened. We even had one blogger, cited above, state that even if the guy had been completely silent and not said a word to her - that would have been also threatening. Am I supposed to understand that? If I don't, is it a function of my diagnosis?

Really - I mean - what lesson are men to take from this? If it's late and you are going to get on an elevator and a lone woman is also going to get on that same elevator, understand that your mere presence is threatening to her, or is very likely to be threatening to her?

and if he had decided not to enter the Elevator (or left it at the next floor - even though not his destination) because she was a woman then she too could have (would have ) been offended. My guess is that at 4am in a Hotel elevator that he thought she might be a prossie (most are part time). Rude not to ask

The good news is that some people are simply full time victims - and are all the happier for having that status This one sounds like one of those

[Coito ergo sum]

I'm not calling him a woman-hating sexist pig. Rebecca Watson didn't call him that, either. Her ire, as I understand it, was primarily directed at Dawkins' ridiculous response to her anecdote about a you-say-dopey, I-say-clueless (and the difference is...?) dude who asked her back to his hotel room in the wee hours of the morning.

As for whether his request that she come back to his room for coffee, after they'd incidentally just left a place that served coffee, was sexual in tone... you're right-- it might not have been a come-on. Maybe he was just that socially retarded that he didn't realize that to most people, getting someone alone at four in the morning and asking her to come back to your hotel room might likely come across as a come-on.

I'm glad you brought up that consideration. We've neglected the possibility that Rebecca Watson is poking fun at the socially retarded. And it's not nice to make fun of people who are challenged.

The point I was making was that - at worst - from Skepchick's description of it - at the very worst - it was a clueless/dopey attempt to get her to his room for a shag. EVEN IF we assume that as his intent and the meaning of the "come back for coffee" request, then is it really a huge deal? Really? I think that is something I freely admit "not getting." I genuinely don't get why the situation described by Skepchick can possibly be described in the terms it has been: threatening - predatory - harassment. I mean - if that's threatening, predatory and harassing, then the only honorable choice for a man is to wait for the next elevator and ride up alone.

I never said Skepchick was poking fun at anyone.

[Coito ergo sum]

As nobody knows exactly how this guy went about asking her for coffee (tone of voice, etc.) then I don't think it's possible to say either way if it was acceptable or not. Depending on the delivery and demeanour it could range from perfectly fine and acceptable to grossly unacceptable.

Of course, we do have "the victim's" account of "the incident," and she did not describe him as overbearing, standing in her personal space, blocking her way, scowling, staring, intoning ominously, comporting himself in a threatening matter, or other such descriptions.