In Praise of Josh Timonen

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Re: In Praise of Josh Timonen

Post by lordpasternack » Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:38 pm

Some comments made by Made of Stars and Flora/Topsy on Pharyngula:
Made of Stars wrote:Thanks to PZ for posting on this.

To those who say 'Dawkins is within his rights to shut down the forum': You're right. But you're missing the point.

The "Outrage", as Dawkins terms it, is not at the site being taken down, although there is some outrage at that.

The "Outrage" is at the way things have been done. These 'things' include:

+ Lying to the staff: We were promised consultation on the new format. We had started planning transition needs, worked on lists of tags so that old posts could be indexed to the new site, and tried to manage member concerns and expectations about the change. Ultimately, there was no consultation, just an announcement that the site would change, and we were no longer required (which is itself naive in the extreme)

+ Misrepresenting staff: There was no basis to assume that we would abuse our admin privileges through a transition, and absolutely no basis to flag this as a concern in the 'Announcement' made by 'admin'.

+ Banning individual staff and deleting their posts after they shared the 'instructions' not to resist change.

+ Demoting all the other forum mods ('blue mods') after the above event.

+ Locking the forum when dissent erupted.

+ Shutting down the PM system so people couldn't contact friends and arrange to meet elsewhere.

+ Disabling signatures and avatars that sprang up in an attempt to arrange off-site rendezvous.

+ Deleting (not suspending) dissenting members, including members who reasonably tried to contact Richard for an explanation.

+ Deleting admin logs recording the above actions. These could only have been reviewed by those involved, so why delete this evidence?

+ Continuing to disable the privileges of members who ask questions on the RD.net 'front page'. And deleting the admin logs of these actions.

+ Quote-mining the outraged posts of members who've regrouped elsewhere, and trying to pass them off as representative of all of our views.

+ Failing to provide any acknowledgement AT ALL of the thousands of man-hours provided free of charge by the staff. Not to mention the professional services offered by the staff with expertise in change management, communications, and software development. Expertise that could have helped avoid this cluster-fuck.

Personally, I'll now have 3-4 hours a day to spend doing other things than deal with reports, merge threads, deal with member emails, and moderate hot discussions between theists and atheists, creationists and evolutionary biologists, and conspiracy theorists and working scientists and engineers.

So I can't complain about that.

But what a shame to see it end in a way that was predicted and repeatedly flagged by a concerned staff.

Made of Stars
ex RD.net Forum Admin
Topsy wrote:Re: The Times article

I was feeling pretty sick when I read Richard's "Outrage" announcement because those insults he quoted were not at all representative of the vast majority of forum members, they were made AFTER the forum was locked and they were NOT sent to Josh or even posted on RD.net forum. They were harvested quotes from a very small minority of people posting elsewhere.

Richard has been informed of this and I was desperately hoping that he'd edit his announcement accordingly.

It's too late now because it's on the Times website and the thousands of loyal, intelligent, rational forum members have been misrepresented as a bunch of foul-mouthed, vitriolic thugs by the man who so inspired them.

To any moderate Christians reading this who have been labelled as disgusting due to the evil, homophobic rantings of the Westborough Baptist Church, I know how you feel.
Topsy wrote:Yes, many thanks to PZ for permitting people to correct the myth that there was a huge tide of vitriolic, abusive comments from the membership, directed at Josh and posted on the forum.

I'm still finding this very hard to believe that the thousands of members have been painted black by the comments of a few people made elsewhere.

The membership would largely have accepted the changed format if they had been informed of it with sensitivity and intelligence and most crucially, been told that their science and reason threads were valuable content that would be transferred over (or at least archived on the web).

Volunteer staff had already started preparing for this by contributing ideas for categories and were willing to test-run the new discussion area to provide constructive feedback on it before it was launched.

All this seems to have been ignored and the focus is on blaming everyone for a minority of hot-headed reactions to being told that this was now not going to happen and the forum would be deleted.
:eddy:
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And go the fools among.
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Re: In Praise of Josh Timonen

Post by lordpasternack » Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:55 pm

Topsy wrote:Copy of letter sent from the RDnet forum staff

Dear Richard
We hope you will find time to read this letter, which is from all the forum staff.

We are all deeply saddened that the forum will be deleted in 28 days time. In just over 3 years, it has grown to become the busiest atheist forum on
the Internet. On average since last October, the forum has been getting 3,000 posts per day, of which about 2,000 per day are focused on science,
reason and your work. The front page average is a fraction of that at 200 - 300. The social posts on the forum only comprise about 1/10 of all posts per day so there is a great deal of substance being discarded.

Staff were told that the science and reason forum content would be migrated to the new site and we offered to help with this. Then 2 days ago, we were told that there was a change of plan and all the forum content would be deleted in 30 days. Members have been told that they can copy their posts and repost them on the new site. This is complete nonsense because it isn't individual posts that make up the forum, it's the discussion threads that are significant and members don't have the ability to migrate whole threads
across. That's what the staff were going to do for them. This is now not going to happen and over 3 years worth of threads debunking creationism & woo, challenging theism, supporting new atheists etc will be wiped out.

Andrew and Josh have now announced that the forum has been made 'read-only' due to the inappropriate actions of staff. This is 'spin' at its finest as it fails to acknowledge that their own inappropriate actions resulted in this debacle in the first place. The announcement that the forum was shut down because some staff posted the letter sent to them and made some public
complaints is nonsense. The letter was exactly the same as the one posted publicly to the members with the addition of letting staff know that their services wouldn't be required at the new website. They also told staff what
they shouldn't do:
[snip - eg email Richard, inflame the users, start any petitions, relocate groups of users to other forums.]

We decided to post this letter on the forum as it explained succinctly that staff wouldn't be required and also let people know that they shouldn't expect staff to take any action on their behalf. Andrew and Josh removed the
letter and they could have also removed the staff's permissions as they said they didn't trust staff anymore. They didn't have to make the forum 'read-only' for everybody in order to gag the staff. The fact is that they needed the staff to deal with all the complaints that would inevitably have been thrown at the forum for the next 30 days. In other words, they expected
the staff to give up their free time to act as police and lavatory cleaners for a month, without a word of dissent themselves, and then just stand aside and watch the forum they'd worked so hard for be deleted. Not much to ask was it?

Since their announcement, you have made one yourself entitled "outrage" which contains copies of some insulting comments about Josh. None of these comments came from the RD forum. They were all posted on various other websites after the forum was locked. Someone has harvested these quote-mines from other websites and presented them to you as justification for locking
the forum. Your announcement also contradicts the admin announcement which says that the reason the forum was locked was due to the staff.They are also saying that they aren't trying to stop people from going off into other forums but right from the start, they prevented members from
having any links/information in their signatures and changed the PM system to make it virtually unworkable so that members can't contact each other easily.

Andrew and Josh could have handled this so much better if they had taken up the offer we made a while ago to advise them on how to make the transition. They don't have any leadership skills or experience but several of us on the
staff do this professionally and have years of experience managing change with large and diverse groups of people. This offer was ignored and instead, they have provided a textbook example of how not to do it. This also includes putting the blame on people for reacting badly to their
ill-conceived actions. The fact that they either didn't expect such a reaction or just didn't care, serves to emphasise their ignorance of how to work with large groups of people and how to manage change.

We have all worked so hard to support your mission because we passionately believe in it. You and your work have been our inspiration to keep going on days when we were verbally abused and threatened by trolls. The staff are highly intelligent people but we were prepared to spend hours of our own time doing low-level and mundane moderating tasks to keep the forum organised, facilitate focused discussions and solve people's technical problems. We were also able to use our skills and expertise in fostering a sense of community and ensuring that all people could post there, free from homophobic, sexist or racist abuse. That's a significant part of why it has
become the most popular atheist forum on the Internet because it's a lively, challenging and supportive environment.

The Foundation's decision to remove the forum is one we deeply regret but we acknowledge that as volunteers, it's not our concern. However, we could have used our skills and expertise to help develop the new discussion area, transfer content over and manage the transition for the membership as smoothly as possible. Andrew and Josh rejected that offer and as we were told recently that we weren't allowed to contact you about any forum
matters, we weren't able to make that offer to you personally.

At the moment, we feel deflated and dismayed while we watch the destruction of such a successful forum but despite that, we continue to wish you well and we sincerely hope that the new website is successful in achieving the Foundation's goals, which is what were striving for with the forum.

Sincerely
The forum staff
Then they for sudden joy did weep,
And I for sorrow sung,
That such a king should play bo-peep,
And go the fools among.
Prithee, nuncle, keep a schoolmaster that can teach
thy fool to lie: I would fain learn to lie.

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Re: In Praise of Josh Timonen

Post by Virus » Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:27 pm

Tortured_Genius wrote:In all this am I seeing the role of Metatron being filled by Josh in his own and RD's eyes.
That sounds like a Transformer.
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Re: In Praise of Josh Timonen

Post by owtth » Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:41 pm

Virus wrote: That sounds like a Transformer.
Only without the coolness, weaponry or the ability to transform into a non-shithead.
At least I'm housebroken.

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Re: In Praise of Josh Timonen

Post by Tortured_Genius » Sat Feb 27, 2010 1:01 am

Virus wrote:
Tortured_Genius wrote:In all this am I seeing the role of Metatron being filled by Josh in his own and RD's eyes.
That sounds like a Transformer.
Ironically, if you follow the wiki link it reads:
Not to be confused with Megatron.
(There's some whacky outlandish stuff on the wiki link for Metatron BTW with quotes from the Talmud and other sources that make the Old Testament look tame by comparison. Old Meta seems to have got a right spanking for no other reason that to demonstrate how he wasn't a god for a Elisha's edification. Lovely stuff from a caring deity.)

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Re: In Praise of Josh Timonen

Post by cursuswalker » Sat Feb 27, 2010 9:36 am

klr wrote:How can you be a pagan and a skeptic? :shifty:

:pardon:
Game on :biggrin:

By honouring your ancestors, the giants on whose shouldes you stand.

By honouring the gods of your ancestors, without believing they actually existed.

By honouring all living things as your relations.

By honouring nature, in trying to understand its true nature.

And occasionally, by putting on a robe at the Pagan festivals and doing ritual (or poety in motion as it should be called)
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Re: In Praise of Josh Timonen

Post by JimC » Sat Feb 27, 2010 9:43 am

maiforpeace wrote:For being booed out of the building at the Atheist Convention Australia. I wonder if he has the guts to show his face there? :mrgreen:
Actually, I would like everybody attending the conference to not wash any dirty linen in public. You all know how the press works - one hint of controversy or scandal, and the real story of the conference will disappear...
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Re: In Praise of Josh Timonen

Post by cursuswalker » Sat Feb 27, 2010 9:45 am

JimC wrote:
maiforpeace wrote:For being booed out of the building at the Atheist Convention Australia. I wonder if he has the guts to show his face there? :mrgreen:
Actually, I would like everybody attending the conference to not wash any dirty linen in public. You all know how the press works - one hint of controversy or scandal, and the real story of the conference will disappear...
There is no such thing as bad publicity.
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Re: In Praise of Josh Timonen

Post by JimC » Sat Feb 27, 2010 9:52 am

cursuswalker wrote:
JimC wrote:
maiforpeace wrote:For being booed out of the building at the Atheist Convention Australia. I wonder if he has the guts to show his face there? :mrgreen:
Actually, I would like everybody attending the conference to not wash any dirty linen in public. You all know how the press works - one hint of controversy or scandal, and the real story of the conference will disappear...
There is no such thing as bad publicity.
There is if the only mention of an atheist conference is division and discord...

And trust me, with the Melbourne press given a sniff of anything like this, it would be the only mention...

BTW, good to hear from you again, CW! :tup:
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Re: In Praise of Josh Timonen

Post by cursuswalker » Sat Feb 27, 2010 9:59 am

In fact it might not be such a bad thing for the press to see that atheists do not always kiss the arse of the Dawk.
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Re: In Praise of Josh Timonen

Post by Skylarking » Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:37 am

cursuswalker wrote:In fact it might not be such a bad thing for the press to see that atheists do not always kiss the arse of the Dawk.
Which is worse: "atheist convention attracts thousands of godless to listen to their papal leader", or "Atheist convention proves Church's prior convictions"?


Either way, fuck the press.
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Re: In Praise of Josh Timonen

Post by Buzzardhut » Sat Feb 27, 2010 6:34 pm

Josh indeed deserves praise for fucking you Godless atheists over so royally.
Now you've shown your true colours. Rabid foul-mouthed scum.
. :crusade:

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Re: In Praise of Josh Timonen

Post by Feck » Sat Feb 27, 2010 6:36 pm

Buzzardhut wrote:Josh indeed deserves praise for fucking you Godless atheists over so royally.
Now you've shown your true colours. Rabid foul-mouthed scum.
Yep bunch of cunts .
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Re: In Praise of Josh Timonen

Post by Thinking Aloud » Sat Feb 27, 2010 6:41 pm

Buzzardhut wrote:Josh indeed deserves praise for fucking you Godless atheists over so royally.
Now you've shown your true colours. Rabid foul-mouthed scum.
I think that passes as a personal attack, which we don't allow here.

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Re: In Praise of Josh Timonen

Post by klr » Sat Feb 27, 2010 6:45 pm

Thinking Aloud wrote:
Buzzardhut wrote:Josh indeed deserves praise for fucking you Godless atheists over so royally.
Now you've shown your true colours. Rabid foul-mouthed scum.
I think that passes as a personal attack, which we don't allow here.
It might also qualify as unintentional irony ... :roll:
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