Those who have come from Pz's blog, aka THAT thread

[cogwheel]

And it really wasn't that fucking hard, you know? I had the same expectations put on me as the men that I graduated with, and that was entirely fair.

I never considered, even growing up in rural fucking bible beating hillbilly country America where most other girls had getting married and having lots of babies as their two life goals that science, math and engineering weren't for me. I wasn't pushed in the direction of engineering, I got there because that's where I gravitated.

In that case I think you should feel both proud and lucky for having the strength of character to withstand the pressures leading those other girls to such limited ambitions. You are an outlier.

The problem I was trying to point out is NOT that you, with your determination, faced challenges in becoming an engineer. The problem is that those other girls are being told by society that they shouldn't have engineering as a goal in the first place. The bible tells them their place is beside their man. Pop culture tell them they have to work in "soft" careers, spend all their time impressing men, etc.

They may have the same opportunities to EXERCISE their desires, but they don't have the same opportunities to DEVELOP their desires.

Same goes for male kids who like pink, as Wumbologist was talking about (iirc)


I'm an outlier too. I'm one of those people who managed to get into a successful technical career without graduating high school (I took the California High School Proficiency Exam my Junior year), or college (I only took a couple semesters of comp sci & math class before deciding school is not how I learn). But I never would have "dropped out" of those things if I didn't have a supportive family who understood my capabilities. When I was more of a libertarian, I believed this meant school was useless. If *I* can get ahead in life, having grown up on welfare, without doing any hardcore schooling, so should anyone. Right?

Well no. Reality struck me over the last couple years... I'm a white male. That in and of itself is a huge leg up. Add a smattering of natural talent for abstract thinking & problem solving, and a HUGE amount of luck as far as which positions I was placed at by temp agencies, and I have a REALLY hard time claiming any credit for the position I'm in now.

We are all victims of circumstance, which is the main reason I don't identify as libertarian anymore (and especially not the anarcho-capitalist I used to be). The libertarian ideal of equal opportunity simply doesn't exist in the real world. Equal opportunity needs to be an active process, given human nature.

[Blind groper]

I have a hard time seeing why someones genitalia should define what they do with their lives.

It is not the genitalia between your legs. It is the genitalia between your ears. If your mind tells you. as a woman to break convention and become a mechanical engineer, then good luck to you. If your mind tells you to behave in a girly way, and work with lacy garments, then likewise good luck to you.

Feminism should be about freedom of choice. It is about people being what they want to be, and behaving (as long as it is legal) in the way they want to behave.

I am jaundiced against extremist feminism. Feminism must be balanced to be credible. I once had an experience that might sound trivial, but has stayed with me and left me with a strong negative feeling about unbalanced feminism. I was at a training course, and left the lecture theatre late, finding only one table left for lunch with a space. i sat down with four women, whose hostile looks left me realising I was not welcome. Turns out from their conversation that they were strongly feminist. I tried to enter the conversation at one point, to be friendly, and was put down most severely. One of the women said she did not talk to rapists. I protested that I had never committed rape, never would commit rape, and was, in fact, temperamentally incapable of committing rape. She repeated her accusation, and I left that table.

So I would tell any woman with feminist views that this is fine and reasonable, but please keep your sense of proportion.

[Wumbologist]

It is not the genitalia between your legs. It is the genitalia between your ears.

No matter how many times I try to put this back into the context in which you meant it...

[mozg]

In that case I think you should feel both proud and lucky for having the strength of character to withstand the pressures leading those other girls to such limited ambitions. You are an outlier.

Withstand what pressure? Nobody was applying any pressure to me or telling me that I couldn't do what I wanted.

The problem I was trying to point out is NOT that you, with your determination, faced challenges in becoming an engineer. The problem is that those other girls are being told by society that they shouldn't have engineering as a goal in the first place. The bible tells them their place is beside their man. Pop culture tell them they have to work in "soft" careers, spend all their time impressing men, etc.

You make it sound very different than it actually was. It wasn't determination to overcome the obstacles of people telling me that I couldn't or shouldn't be an engineer. The challenges that I faced were no different than any other engineer - making the grades and doing the job.

They may have the same opportunities to EXERCISE their desires, but they don't have the same opportunities to DEVELOP their desires.

A boy in the inner city with no father, an addict for a mother, and a school where his biggest concern is not getting killed has way less opportunity to develop the knowledge has that would get him into a good engineering program than I did.

I'm an outlier too. I'm one of those people who managed to get into a successful technical career without graduating high school (I took the California High School Proficiency Exam my Junior year), or college (I only took a couple semesters of comp sci & math class before deciding school is not how I learn). But I never would have done either of those things if I didn't have a supportive family who understood my capabilities. When I was more of a libertarian, I believed this meant school was useless. If *I* can get ahead in life, having grown up on welfare, without doing any hardcore schooling, so should anyone. Right?

I'm not an outlier. There is nothing that I've got that any other reasonably intelligent person in average middle class rural USA doesn't. I didn't crusade against the odds, and it wasn't an uphill battle to be accepted. I just showed up and did the work. I didn't have to say 'I won't take no for an answer.' because nobody told me 'No.'

Well no. Reality struck me over the last couple years... I'm a white male. That in and of itself is a huge leg up. Add a smattering of natural talent for abstract thinking & problem solving, and a HUGE amount of luck as far as which positions I was placed at by temp agencies, and I have a REALLY hard time claiming any credit for the position I'm in now.

I don't have a hard time claiming credit for the results of the work I've done. I'm above average in intelligence and willing to put the effort required of anyone, male or female, in my position into it.

We are all victims of circumstance, which is the main reason I don't identify as libertarian anymore (and especially not the anarcho-capitalist I used to be). The libertarian ideal of equal opportunity simply doesn't exist in the real world. Equal opportunity needs to be an active process, given human nature.

There were plenty of other girls in my school years who were also intelligent and had the same opportunities that I did. A few did go into hard sciences and math, and others chose not to. The opportunities were the same for all of us. I don't know how else to put it. I went my way, and they went theirs.


Using my phone increases the rate of typos.

[Badger3k]

I've been busy and hadn't seen this, so I have a lot to catch up on (not only here, though). Someone did catch this, and I wondered if it had been posted here yet - I though that rape jokes are never ok.

Say it ain't so, rape apologist!

PZ Myers
‏@pzmyers

You know, we've got state executioners. Maybe we need Official State Rapers, if we're going to take that route.

[cogwheel]

mozg: I feel like we're talking past each other, and I admit that's partly my fault. I have a knack for making the things i say more convoluted than necessary and losing the intended meaning. I'll try again later, but I just want to reiterate that I wasn't making a statement about people standing in your way to reach your goals. I was not trying to discount your own personal experience, just put it in a different perspective.

[Badger3k]

What I want to know is, what is the goal? Pappa is not a public figure and rationalia makes no claims to be any kind of beacon for skepticism, so why post the thread at all? Someone that nobody has any knowledge of before said something offensive somewhere on the internet so members of FTB are outraged go demand they apologize while accusing every member of the site of being rape apologists? Where does it end? I am not arguing about the quality of the post, I just don't get why the fuck it's anyone's concern outside of the forum. Are PZ's minions going to rid the world of all people on forums who say hurtful things? Not to mention the fact that there are a lot of sites with legitimately violent and sexist content that is not apologetic or meant to be humorous, so why not spend your time there? It seems like the focus has been on shaming other people in what they see as their community, and alienating a lot of good people in the process. Maybe we should invite Thunderf00t over.

Part of it has to do with things like this, which can be seen as an irresponsible call for witch hunts:
A Dangerous Mindset

This is a quote from Dale McGowan, the Executive Director of Foundation Beyond Belief.

Finally, we HAVE to begin calling people on their anonymity. If it’s protecting someone from harm or exposure, fine. If it only gives them the freedom to harm others, we have to go after it as a huge part of the problem. As long as our community lives and connects primarily online, the problems of the medium are going to continue getting in the way of sane, civil, productive discourse.

Considering the post linked to is as Skepchick, this might be a reason to be worried. However, considering the level of harassment that some have done at PZs place, this could bite them in the butt.

[Wumbologist]

I've been busy and hadn't seen this, so I have a lot to catch up on (not only here, though). Someone did catch this, and I wondered if it had been posted here yet - I though that rape jokes are never ok.

Say it ain't so, rape apologist!

PZ Myers
‏@pzmyers

You know, we've got state executioners. Maybe we need Official State Rapers, if we're going to take that route.

Joking about corrective rape is A-OK if you're PZ Myers.

[Badger3k]

I don't know if I would call it religious.

I just see a difference in attitude between folks who actually do something or know something, and folks with "communications" majors who read middle school level books like "Bad Astronomy" ...and then claim to have knowledge on a subject.

They pretty much glom on to what they think is the appropriate thing to believe, and then run around suggesting that everyone who doesn't agree is stupid.

That's my hunch how "party girls" Skepchicks went from "science is sexy" and let's get all racy and rowdy, to Catharine Mackinnon/Andrea Dworkin Feminism in a few short months. Somebody over there read a book about feminism, and now they're running around telling everyone what they "gotta learn."

It may not be a book these days. The standard response is to point to a "Feminism 101" website as if that is holy text. When I related that to atheists being asked to read the bible, as if that answered all questions, no one replied. They may have by now, but after a bit I stopped going back and now can't remember where I did it.

I think this is the website: http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/

[Badger3k]

Wow. Interesting discussion on facts. No one banned, shouted down, told you don't understand. Why, evidence is even provided. I like it - interesting thread and a lot to consider. Appreciate finding this place.

[DaveD]

Exi5tentialist is over at RatSkep, and he's still demanding that this place be run according to his standards!
http://www.rationalskepticism.org/gener ... l#p1402136

[Twoflower]

Exi5tentialist is over at RatSkep, and he's still demanding that this place be run according to his standards!
http://www.rationalskepticism.org/gener ... l#p1402136

If it makes him happy...

[Bella Fortuna]

So I saw.

[Robert_S]

Exi5tentialist is over at RatSkep, and he's still demanding that this place be run according to his standards!
http://www.rationalskepticism.org/gener ... l#p1402136

Graciously, Exi5 has not gone into verbose mode.

[DaveD]

He will, give him time. He's threatening to come here, but he's afraid you'll all flay him alive.