Dawkins: At War With The Feminists?

[Gallstones]

Haha. Charlou. It must be something about fantasising about having the 'decision' taken out of your hands. I wonder?? In REALITY, I think I would feel a bit nervous and vulnerable to be propositioned in a lift. In a bar, a club, a supermarket, or any other area with other people milling about, bring it on!!! but for me, if a man made the decision to proposition me in a confined space and with no one else in view, at best I would think him an insensitive dick head.

Context is important. He hadn't just seen Watson in the elevator-- he'd been listening to her talk about sexualization/objectification of women, for hours. How is it not clueless of him to ignore everything she said? If you want a woman not to feel objectified, paying attention to her clearly stated likes and dislikes is a good place to start.

And how is it not clueless of him not to realize that asking someone back to your place has a different effect when it's four in the morning and you're alone in an elevator, versus maybe asking her back at the bar, before she decided to leave? Or at any other point in the long day he'd spent as part of her audience?

Just saw you there, XC-- and...word.

But, is coming on to a woman one finds attractive, even in a clumsy or "inappropriate" manner, to be considered the sexualization/objectification of women? I mean, surely women who don't like to be objectified still might like to ride the baloney pony now and again?

How is it ignoring everything she said to make a clumsy attempt to ask her back to his room for coffer? Maybe he really did want to have a chat and grab a cup of coffee - it was 4am. Lots of people like a bit of coffee when it's late and they've been up all night.

As for the choice of location. He may well have not had an opportunity to talk to her. Maybe he was nervous. Maybe he wound up with her in the elevator purely by chance and thought "what the hell, I'll be nice and try to non-sexually ask her for a cup of java" to show her that he was a modern man who can invite a woman back to his room for something other than banging her. That's "clueless?" Maybe he had no interest in her except for intellectually - she's not that hot anyway, so maybe the guy really did want to have a chat?

I think one needs to make some really big assumptions about this guy in order to question his motives and call him clueless. And, even if he is clueless, and found her attractive but went about it the wrong way asking her in the wrong place at the wrong time - for the love of noGod - was the error of such monumental proportions that he is now to be considered a woman-hating sexist pig? From his clumsy approach, he sounds more like a nerd or a geek who had a couple two many drinks and made a dopey attempt to get to know this chick.

So, "coming on" to a woman isn't about sex, with her? And if it is about sex with her, isn't she then sexualized?

Well, here's the thing. Women are sexual beings, and men are sexual beings. So, if interacting with a woman because one is interested in sex with that woman is "sexualizing" them, then the same would be true if women interact with a man desiring to have sex with him. The point I was trying to make is that whether one human wants to have sex with another human doesn't seem to be the issue. It's something more. Hence the word "objectification." I used the term "sexualization/objecification," because objectification seems to be part of the equation.

And, yes, coming on to a woman usually is about sex with her, but so what?

Asking a woman for coffee may be, but isn't necessarily, about having sex with her. And, two, even if it was, if someone politely asks you up for coffee, and you say no, and go on your merry way, exactly what has happened that a grown woman shouldn't be able to handle?

When you are interacting with a person with the intent to convince them to have sex with you, that is sexualizing them. Not everyone likes that coming from strangers. Just because a person may be attracted to another and want to have sex with them does not mean the other is obligated to find the attempts to make them agreeable to having sex acceptable or desirable or appropriate. The other isn't even obligated to be polite or considerate. That is the risk one takes when approaching strangers for sex.

[Coito ergo sum]

I'm a woman whose view of the situation varies from some others I've read. Most of my thoughts on it have been posted at RatSkep.

So, had it been you in the lift, you wouldn't have thought him an insensitive dickhead? Or you wouldn't be disturbed by his behaviour?

Either way, fair enough, your personal view is as valid as anyone's. You seem to be in a small minority of women however. I am not claiming that you are wrong, merely that I would reasonably expect such behaviour to creep out most women and so, personally, I would not act similarly for that reason. If I ever were to drunkenly proposition a minor celebrity in a hotel lift, I would consider myself a dickhead for not appreciating that fact.

Point of fact: there was no overt proposition - he asked her if she would like some coffee. That's fairly important here. If I walk up to a woman who unbeknownst to me has no interest in being hit on, and I say, "Hey baby, wanna go back to my place and bump uglies?" That would be creepy and inappropriate. If I walk up to her and say, "Hello, my name is so-and-so. I saw you from across the room, and I wondered if I could buy you a drink [or cup of coffee]" - that does not appear in the least to be creepy, and I don't think it would matter if the words were said in an elevator. But, apparently, I don't get it.

Point of fact---as we do have her video as evidence--there was no hysteria or overreaction either. Well, except by Dawkins and the internet phenomenon engendered by Dawkins' remarks.

I never said she was hysterical. I was responding to what Chegwe wrote.

But, there are plenty of women who have expressed that this is something "men don't get" and that it is "misogyny" and that it is "sexist" and that this is an example of what men "should not do." I find those reactions to be unjustified because I think that Skepchick's reaction to the "incident" (a guy getting on an elevator with her at 4am after they both left a bar and asking her up to his room for coffee) to be excessive - she suggested that it was sexist and misogynistic didn't she? Some evidence of male entitlement?

[Gallstones]

For the record, regardless of context, I--me--am not going to the hotel room of some guy I don't know and never met. I don't care what he says he wants to do there with me.

So, then if a guy asks you there for coffee, and you say no thanks, and he goes off on his merry way, has something misogynistic happened?

Only when he calls me a frigid bitch and tells me I have no business going out "looking like that" if I had no intentions of putting out.

Only when he is looking at my chest the whole time.

Which has happened.
Try to understand if I am a bit sour now.

[Gallstones]

When a woman says, "I don't like this. Don't do this" Fucking don't do it. Get it? Don't call her frigid or a nut or a harpy.
When we say these things we are doing you a favor--it is so you can be successful in connecting or even hooking up. Make sense?

[Coito ergo sum]

When you are interacting with a person with the intent to convince them to have sex with you, that is sexualizing them.

Is there something wrong with interacting with a person with the intent to convince them to have sex?

Not everyone likes that coming from strangers.

The guy asked her up for coffee.

Just because a person may be attracted to another and want to have sex with them does not mean the other is obligated to find the attempts to make them agreeable to having sex acceptable or desirable or appropriate.

All very true. But, just because something is disagreeable, or just because you find what someone else asks you to be undesirable or inappropriate doesn't make it misogynistic, and some sort of anti-feminist behavior. The guy asked her up for coffee.

One blogger said his "intent didn't matter." If that's true, then we should only take him at his word. He was offering her coffee.

The other isn't even obligated to be polite or considerate. That is the risk one takes when approaching strangers for sex.

Of course she's not obligated to be polite or considerate.

And, the guy didn't ask for sex. He asked her up for coffee. He might have meant sex, but she said she wasn't interested and went to her room. He took no for an answer.

Exactly what is wrong with that ?

[Gallstones]

When you are interacting with a person with the intent to convince them to have sex with you, that is sexualizing them.

Is there something wrong with interacting with a person with the intent to convince them to have sex?

Not everyone likes that coming from strangers.

The guy asked her up for coffee.

Just because a person may be attracted to another and want to have sex with them does not mean the other is obligated to find the attempts to make them agreeable to having sex acceptable or desirable or appropriate.

All very true. But, just because something is disagreeable, or just because you find what someone else asks you to be undesirable or inappropriate doesn't make it misogynistic, and some sort of anti-feminist behavior. The guy asked her up for coffee.

One blogger said his "intent didn't matter." If that's true, then we should only take him at his word. He was offering her coffee.

The other isn't even obligated to be polite or considerate. That is the risk one takes when approaching strangers for sex.

Of course she's not obligated to be polite or considerate.

And, the guy didn't ask for sex. He asked her up for coffee. He might have meant sex, but she said she wasn't interested and went to her room. He took no for an answer.

Exactly what is wrong with that ?

I have posted enough in this thread that you don't need to ask me to repeat myself.
Also, had you read what I have already posted you would not be ascribing a POV to me that I do not hold.
I am not going to answer for some other blogger or some other person posting on this topic.

[Coito ergo sum]

When a woman says, "I don't like this. Don't do this" Fucking don't do it. Get it?

When a guy doesn't "do" anything, but merely asks her up for coffee, then he didn't do anything to stop doing. When she says "no" and he says "o.k., have a good night." Then nobody has done anything wrong. Get it?

Don't call her frigid or a nut or a harpy.

You must be thinking of someone else.

When we say these things we are doing you a favor--it is so you can be successful in connecting or even hooking up. Make sense?

Not in the least. You're not talking about what actually happened in the incident in question. You're apparently referring to some other incident where someone was told that a woman didn't like something done to her, and refused to stop doing it. That has about as much to do with some guy asking a woman up to his room for coffee and her saying no, and he saying o.k., as a rabbit with a pancake on its head. Make sense?

[stripes4]

Bloody hell, CES. you don't half bang on.

[Coito ergo sum]

For the record, regardless of context, I--me--am not going to the hotel room of some guy I don't know and never met. I don't care what he says he wants to do there with me.

So, then if a guy asks you there for coffee, and you say no thanks, and he goes off on his merry way, has something misogynistic happened?

Only when he calls me a frigid bitch and tells me I have no business going out "looking like that" if I had no intentions of putting out.

Only when he is looking at my chest the whole time.

Which has happened.
Try to understand if I am a bit sour now.

Sure, but try not to superimpose one situation on another. The guy who said those things to you was wrong. But, he did not merely ask you up for coffee and accept a no without comment, now did he?

[Coito ergo sum]

Bloody hell, CES. you don't half bang on.

I've had a few glasses of vino at this point.

Sorry if I offended anyone.

I still think the idea that the guy getting on an elevator with Skepchick and asking her to his room for coffee did something misogynistic, sexist and objectifying, or even anything that needs "doing something about," is ridiculous. You're all big girls, and ought to be able to withstand the odd "care to pop up to my room for some coffee?"

If I don't get it, then I don't apologize for not getting it. I'll go so far as to agree that it's probably inappropriate under most circumstances to just up and ask strange women up to your room for coffee. However, that's the most it is. It's not evidence of "misogyny" (hatred of women), it's not "sexist" (at least it's no more sexist than dating people of the opposite sex), and it's not "objectification" (necessarily, anyway - objectification is in the mind of the objectifier and purely in the mind of the objectifier).

Does any woman here REALLY think that what actually happened constituted misogyny and something that needs doing something about? I mean - are you really concerned about rogue dorkhead atheists with no game asking you to go their room for coffee? Really?

[Coito ergo sum]

not automatically, no. I didn't say that, as well you know.

So, based on exactly what Skepchick said, what's the big deal about the dork asking her to his room for coffee? She said no. He left.

Big deal?

[stripes4]

No. I am not concerned, I CAN JUST SEE THAT IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES IT WOULD MAKE SOME WOMEN FEEL A BIT THREATENED AND NOT VERY SAFE. Like it or not, rape happens. Females raping males is rare and biologically unlikely!!! Men DO rape women so women DO tend to be on their guard when alone and it's late and it's dark and there aren't many people around. Men that do NOT understand and appreciate this are autistic morons, I've found. DO YOU UNDERSTAND YET??? PROBABLY NOT. See recent DIAGNOSIS

[Geoff]

No. I am not concerned, I CAN JUST SEE THAT IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES IT WOULD MAKE SOME WOMEN FEEL A BIT THREATENED AND NOT VERY SAFE. Like it or not, rape happens. Females raping males is rare and biologically unlikely!!! Men DO rape women so women DO tend to be on their guard when alone and it's late and it's dark and there aren't many people around. Men that do NOT understand and appreciate this are autistic morons, I've found. DO YOU UNDERSTAND YET??? PROBABLY NOT. See recent DIAGNOSIS

In certain circumstances yes, but this wasn't one of them.

Like most people who've posted, I really don't see why she thought it worth mentioning.

[stripes4]

Don't argue with me Geoff, or I won't shag you in a lift

[Geoff]

Don't argue with me Geoff, or I won't shag you in a lift

Deal.

Fancy a coffee?