Anti-Vaxxers

Do they really exist?

No
0
No votes
Cheese
1
10%
Yes, but they should be shot.
4
40%
Then they should be bacon
2
20%
I think it is perfectly reasonable to believe that Bill Gates wants to put Nanobot microchips into everybody.
3
30%
 
Total votes: 10

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Brian Peacock
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Re: Anti-Vaxxers

Post by Brian Peacock » Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:10 am

Strontium Dog wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:14 pm
Strontium Dog wrote:Genuine anti-vaxxers exist and merit opprobrium, but I don't like this new trend of describing anyone who has perfectly reasonable concerns about vaccines that have been sped through the approval process with indecent haste as anti-vaxx. It's worrying to see such dogmatism creeping into science.
'Indecent haste' eh? What's a decent velocity, in your opinion? Would you prefer we wait for a 24 month approval period, or 18 months, or maybe 12 months would be a less indecorous amount of time to approve a new therapy?

Asking for a friend. :tea:
Vaccine development normally takes years, sometimes decades. Surely nobody can argue that a few months is highly unusual.

Doesn't bother me either way to be honest, as I have no intention of taking it.

I look forward to government providing the number of deaths within 28 days of an immunisation, as they do with deaths within 28 days of a coronavirus infection.
You're not an anti-vaxxer but your not taking it because you don't trust the govt. M'kay.

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Re: Anti-Vaxxers

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:12 am

We'll get the 5G chip into him somehow..
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Re: Anti-Vaxxers

Post by rainbow » Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:09 am

Strontium Dog wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:54 pm
Brian Peacock wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:14 pm
Strontium Dog wrote:Genuine anti-vaxxers exist and merit opprobrium, but I don't like this new trend of describing anyone who has perfectly reasonable concerns about vaccines that have been sped through the approval process with indecent haste as anti-vaxx. It's worrying to see such dogmatism creeping into science.
'Indecent haste' eh? What's a decent velocity, in your opinion? Would you prefer we wait for a 24 month approval period, or 18 months, or maybe 12 months would be a less indecorous amount of time to approve a new therapy?

Asking for a friend. :tea:
Vaccine development normally takes years, sometimes decades. Surely nobody can argue that a few months is highly unusual.
I think many can ague that since they can come up with a new vaccine every year for the various new flu strains, it is actually quite usual.
Doesn't bother me either way to be honest, as I have no intention of taking it.

I look forward to government providing the number of deaths within 28 days of an immunisation, as they do with deaths within 28 days of a coronavirus infection.
We look forward to hearing about your experience with intubation.
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Re: Anti-Vaxxers

Post by Brian Peacock » Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:16 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:12 am
We'll get the 5G chip into him somehow..
:hehe:

But it's not like he hasn't noted a specific fact - the vaccines have been developed in a short time compared to usual commercial development cycles. Is that particularly contentious or note-worthy though? Governments have thrown a shedload of money at this particular problem and a lot of other pharma work has been pushed aside. Nonetheless, Mr Dog said the vaccines had been 'sped through the approval process with indecent haste' didn't he - which certainly goes a bit further than simply noting the unusual circumstances. That's why I'm still waiting to find out what's allegedly improper or shameful about the time scale here. I won't hold my breath though - Mr Dog it too infrequent a contributor to expect a robust exchange of views.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Anti-Vaxxers

Post by JimC » Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:52 am

The unusual speed of development was necessary and proper in the circumstances, but I would accept that resulting vaccines may have slightly higher risk profiles than those created in the normal regimes. The ethics of risk management are complex and involve balancing competing priorities.

I will be quite happy to take whatever vaccine is available in Oz sometime next year. Given our current fortunate position in terms of the virus, our needs as a nation are certainly less urgent than many others...
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Re: Anti-Vaxxers

Post by rainbow » Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:27 am

JimC wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:52 am
The unusual speed of development was necessary and proper in the circumstances, but I would accept that resulting vaccines may have slightly higher risk profiles than those created in the normal regimes. The ethics of risk management are complex and involve balancing competing priorities.

I will be quite happy to take whatever vaccine is available in Oz sometime next year. Given our current fortunate position in terms of the virus, our needs as a nation are certainly less urgent than many others...
...just in time for Bill Gates to perfect his Nanobot technology.

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Re: Anti-Vaxxers

Post by Svartalf » Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:12 pm

NineBerry wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:04 pm
I wouldn't say that it is "indicent haste" that a technology that has been in active development for over 20 years, has been trialed in clinical trials for more than 10 years and now has a concrete implementation that was tested on 200,000 people is used to combat a virus that hits a totally naive (having no immunity whatsoever) population with an IFR of about 0.8 in the the civilized West and a potential for severe long time damage on 10% of the infected people.
Entschuldigen sie? How is that possible when talking about a germ that was all but unknown a year ago?
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Re: Anti-Vaxxers

Post by Strontium Dog » Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:00 pm

NineBerry wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:29 pm
I don't know who hijacked Galaxian's account, butt it seems Galaxian has hijacked Strontium Dog's account.
Hilarious.
NineBerry wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:29 pm
The idea that number of covid deaths in the UK is exaggerated because everyone is counted who dies within 28 days after positive test is a hoax. This number is used as a preliminary statistic to be able to report statistics on a daily basis. The numbers are corrected later on based on causes of death given on death certificates. Also, considering the statistics on excess deaths in the UK actually shows that the official numbers on covid deaths underestimate the actual numbers.
What excess deaths shows is that people are dying from other stuff, because our health service has basically given up on treating patients unless they have this cold that's going round.
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Re: Anti-Vaxxers

Post by Strontium Dog » Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:02 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:10 am
You're not an anti-vaxxer but your not taking it because you don't trust the govt. M'kay.
That couldn't be further from the truth. If I was in an at-risk cohort of society, I'd be first in the queue to take it. But I'm 42, not 82. At a certain point, the risks from taking a novel vaccine outweigh the risks from getting this cold.
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Re: Anti-Vaxxers

Post by Strontium Dog » Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:04 pm

Tero wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:36 am
Strontium Dog wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:57 pm
Genuine anti-vaxxers exist and merit opprobrium, but I don't like this new trend of describing anyone who has perfectly reasonable concerns about vaccines that have been sped through the approval process with indecent haste as anti-vaxx. It's worrying to see such dogmatism creeping into science.
I stated my usual concerns and got labeled an antivaxxer.

Luckily Trump screwed up our order, so by June when we get vaccines, the rest of the world will have been guinea pigs for half a yrar.

Our guinea pigs are already proving useful:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55244122
People with a history of significant allergic reactions should not have the Pfizer/BioNTech Covid jab, regulators say.

It came after two NHS workers had allergic reactions on Tuesday.

The advice applies to those who have had reactions to medicines, food or vaccines, the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency said.
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Re: Anti-Vaxxers

Post by Tero » Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:15 pm

That was not really my concern, more long term effects.

I had the two shingles vaccines and had almost no effects. Two of my inlaws were both sick for a day, bedridden.
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Re: Anti-Vaxxers

Post by NineBerry » Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:12 pm

NineBerry wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:29 pm
I don't know who hijacked Galaxian's account, butt it seems Galaxian has hijacked Strontium Dog's account.
Strontium Dog wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:00 pm
this cold that's going round.
QED

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Re: Anti-Vaxxers

Post by NineBerry » Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:20 pm

Strontium Dog wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:04 pm

Our guinea pigs are already proving useful:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55244122
People with a history of significant allergic reactions should not have the Pfizer/BioNTech Covid jab, regulators say.

It came after two NHS workers had allergic reactions on Tuesday.

The advice applies to those who have had reactions to medicines, food or vaccines, the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency said.
The two people had a reaction shortly after having the new jab, had treatment and are both fine now.

They are understood to have had an anaphylactoid reaction, which tends to involve a skin rash, breathlessness and sometimes a drop in blood pressure. This is not the same as anaphylaxis which can be fatal.

Both NHS workers have a history of serious allergies and carry adrenaline pens around with them.
So, people who are prone to getting allergic reactions to the point that they carry adrenaline pens with them all the time have an allergic reaction. That's not really a surprise. This happens with all types of vaccination. It's also why there already was an announcement weeks ago that the vaccination centers that are installed all over the place in Germany will have monitoring lounges where people will have to stay for half an hour after they receive their shot so that a potential allergic reaction can be treated.

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Re: Anti-Vaxxers

Post by NineBerry » Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:29 pm

Svartalf wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:12 pm
NineBerry wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:04 pm
I wouldn't say that it is "indicent haste" that a technology that has been in active development for over 20 years, has been trialed in clinical trials for more than 10 years and now has a concrete implementation that was tested on 200,000 people is used to combat a virus that hits a totally naive (having no immunity whatsoever) population with an IFR of about 0.8 in the the civilized West and a potential for severe long time damage on 10% of the infected people.
Entschuldigen sie? How is that possible when talking about a germ that was all but unknown a year ago?
Because science and technology rule. We don't do vaccinations the classical way: Multiply the virus, add some poison to destroy the viral structure, then inject that into the body together with some more poison to trigger an reaction. That's crude. That's cave man technology. We have technological platforms that allow us to design general-purpose vaccines that can be retrofitted to vaccinate against most types of viruses and will even be able to vaccinate against certain types of cancer in the future.

You only need to know the construction plan of the virus and you can use that information to select one small part of a protein of the virus with the right condition, calculate the genetic code that produces that small part and then embed that into the existing technology. We have powerful computers and computer models that can simulate within hours if there's any potential problems.

Also, one condition speeding up the development of this virus rapidly:

* A disease where no vaccine is already available (So one has to be created)
* A disease that is wide-spread in society so that phase 3 studies can conclude quickly. These studies require people to get infected in order to prove the efficacy of the vaccine. This takes longer if there are very few people actually suffering from the disease.
* Rich people in danger of contracting the disease and therefore willing to pay for it.

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Re: Anti-Vaxxers

Post by Tero » Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:15 pm

Coronaviruses are well known, as well as their biochemistry. Previous species only infected the upper respiratory. There are also livestock diseases we dealt with.
https://esapolitics.blogspot.com

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