Racism about islam can't exist: islam isn't a race: Poll

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Do you agree with the substantive motion?

Yes
10
71%
No
3
21%
Not sure
1
7%
 
Total votes: 14

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Re: Racism about islam can't exist: islam isn't a race: Poll

Post by Brian Peacock » Wed Mar 09, 2016 1:44 pm

Exi5tentialist wrote:There are millions of muslims in islam. Islam is what they make it. Not all muslims are the same. Not all islams are the same. To "criticize islam" is to conceive of a single thing called islam. But there are many islams so it is an inaccurate construction.
Surely context is important here though? For example, one might criticise Islam in the form of a general criticism of religion, but that's not to personally malign all members of all religions. One might also criticise Islam in general terms with regards to the text of its 'holy' writings, but that's not to criticise any and every interpretation of those texts. One might also criticise Islam in specific formulations, and at this point the context becomes more specific and bounded.
The edict that it is always and everywhere ok to "criticize islam" is a dualistic declaration of open season on muslims.
With respect, pah! ;) Of course it's OK to 'criticise Islam' as there is nothing special or particular about Islam or Islamic ideas or ideals, or about Muslims or about being a Muslim; if one accepts this then the issue becomes one of the content and context of any such criticism. Why, for example, might we suppose that an "edict that it is always and everywhere OK to criticise Islam" is of a special type or kind when it is essentially no different to maintaining a right (and some might say, an obligation) to criticise political viewpoints? Does maintaining that it is "always and everywhere OK" to criticise Anarchism or Constitutional Federalism, for example, declare an 'open season' on anarchists and constitutional federalist - or does it just entail a criticism of their ideas; an opinion on an opinion?
Islam and muslims are not dualistically separated; they are one in the same.
Well, here we disagree. In my view people are not their ideas; their ideas, whether that be normative or objective claims or moral judgements, or (perhaps) transient opinions on this-or-that, or just their stated preferences, tastes, or inclinations, become public affairs within a public domain as soon as they communicate them to others. As such people's publicly expressed ideas and beliefs act as a trigger to our own ideas and opinions, and how we react to those ideas, and the manner in which we articulate those reactions--and indeed whether we choose to articulate that publicly or just to ourselves--is our business and responsibility alone.

Of course, I'm not suggesting here that this affords anyone a de facto right to say whatever they like, to whomever they like, in whatever manner they like: The fact that someone has expressed an idea or opinion does not grant one free licence to act without restraint or, if you like, distastefully. To maintain that the existence of other people's ideas and opinion justifies any and all action we may undertake in response is merely an exercise in abrogating one's responsibility as an autonomous agent at large in the world. And yet, if we foreclose on a reasonable allowance to respond to the ideas and opinions of others, on the grounds that the existence of criticism of the expressed ideas or opinions of others is somehow morally dubious or untenable, or somehow emotionally dangerous or harmful to them personally, then we are in fact also foreclosing on the possibility of reasoned, rational discourse. In my experience, those who maintain that this-or-that idea is necessarily beyond criticism, review or rational challenge are those who also maintain a claim to personal infallibility and an unshakable right never to be wrong or to never have their utterances challenged - such that even when they're wrong they're right!
As with the dualism of "criticize the idea, not the person", this islam-muslim separation has philosophically religious roots. Dualism is valuable to people who need a get-out-of-jail-free card. People who want to act in a discriminatory way but at the same time give themselves a free pass to do so. That's why I'm not a dualist. These separate realities of muslim-islam or idea-person are cynical artificial constructions.
The philocratic roots of an idea, any idea, is irrelevant here as it neither elevates nor degrades an idea automatically, and the formulation of dualism you present is, it seems to me, simply a necessary social construct which affords us the ability to both appraise and assess the merits or veracity ideas (claims, judgements, opinions, and preferences) from another's perspective as well as on and in their own terms at a step removed from the person and the personal.

We have to accept that, on the whole, religions are predicated on a number of declared objective claims and normative moral judgements, even while the composition and content of those claims and judgements are not fixed - either between religious traditions or indeed within them. One might criticise a claim that Jesus walked on water or Buddha lived on a grain of rice a day (and then on nothing at all!) in the same way one might criticise a claim that Muhammed rode a heavenly steed from North Africa to Jerusalem's Temple Mount in a single night before climbing a ladder and touring the seven levels of heaven for a chat with Isa, that is; in context and accepting that not every Christian or Muslim actually believes these these claims or orders their life by them - even if they are, to a greater or lesser extent, obliged to take the writings in their 'holy' books as the indisputable, factual word of God/Allah.

Similar reasoning and criticism can be brought to bear on moral claims, obligation and judgements as to objective or factual claims, and in circumstances where people or organisations propose the adoption of a normative ethic I suggest an allowance to critically respond to the ideas and opinions of others is a reciprocal necessity unless, that is, we are to grant that everyone is 'a law unto themselves' and inculcate a society in which all are free to act as they see fit without recourse and any and all action is assessed only in terms of the (self-declared) justification of the individual agent.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Racism about islam can't exist: islam isn't a race: Poll

Post by Forty Two » Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:19 pm

Exi5tentialist wrote:There are millions of muslims in islam. Islam is what they make it. Not all muslims are the same. Not all islams are the same.
Sure, and nobody says that all Muslims are the same or all sects of Islam are the same. However, Islam is a religion that has certain dogmas and principles. It's a thing. Like Christianity. Yet, we can criticize Christianity and even ridicule it without White Knights muddling issues with the constant red herring refrain of "not all Christians are the same. Not all Christianities are the same. Christianity is what they make it." Most everyone knows that about both religions, and yet it doesn't stop criticism of Christianity as a religion. For some reason, some ideologues of a given persuasion want to stop criticism of Islam on that ground, though....
Exi5tentialist wrote:
To "criticize islam" is to conceive of a single thing called islam.
which there is - like Christianity, Judaism and Jainism. They are things.
Exi5tentialist wrote: But there are many islams so it is an inaccurate construction. The edict that it is always and everywhere ok to "criticize islam" is a dualistic declaration of open season on muslims.
When it comes to criticism, it is open season on EVERYONE. Nobody is immune from criticism. To criticize ideas and even people is what free speech is in part about.

Open season? LOL. As if saying a religion sucks or is evil is somehow an attack on its adherents. And, that criticism is somehow damaging or injurious. That's the social justice mindset for you. Are you in a "protected group"? If so, then people being critical of you is like punching you in the face! Worse, even!
Exi5tentialist wrote:
Islam and muslims are not dualistically separated; they are one in the same.
Wait, you just got through saying that we can't know what Islam is, because there are just too many different kinds of Islam, and now you say you know that Islam and Muslims are "one in the same. Nice that you deny anyone else the ability to say what Islam is, but you grant yourself that right. Another regressive leftist tendency, that.
Exi5tentialist wrote:
As with the dualism of "criticize the idea, not the person", this islam-muslim separation has philosophically religious roots.
So? Nobody is saying you can't criticize the person (in real life). They're saying that criticism of the ideas is not criticism of the person who may claim to follow a religion which holds that ideas. The reason why people say that is because, like, a Catholic can claim to be a Catholic, while not adhering to the extreme, ridiculous ideas of Catholicism. Yet, that does not change the fact that Catholicism as a religion generally holds certain extreme, ridiculous ideas of Catholicism. So, when someone says "Catholicism is sexist and homophobic" that is not an attack on "Catholics" because everyone knows that not all Catholics are sexist and homophobic. Same with Islam
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Re: Racism about islam can't exist: islam isn't a race: Poll

Post by Exi5tentialist » Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:27 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:The philocratic roots of an idea, any idea, is irrelevant here as it neither elevates nor degrades an idea automatically, and the formulation of dualism you present is, it seems to me, simply a necessary social construct which affords us the ability to both appraise and assess the merits or veracity ideas (claims, judgements, opinions, and preferences) from another's perspective as well as on and in their own terms at a step removed from the person and the personal
Sorry I don't know what you mean by philocratic and Google isn't very helpful could you explain please?

I don't agree that the "forumulation of dualism" I present is "simply a necessary social construct which affords us the ability to both appraise and assess the merits or veracity of ideas". I don't see it as being "a step removed" from the personal.

The fact is you can be extremely personal by couching all your arguments as arguments about somebody's ideas. After an onslaught of being told your "ideas" are cretinous, retarded, stupid, regressive leftist, islamophobic, racist or whatever there is absolutely no difference in effect from saying that you are a cretin, a retard, a regressive leftist, an islamophobic, a racist or whatever. By forbidding one formulation of nasty attacck and allowing another formulation, you just end up with a whole load of nasty attacks. I think a forum set up like that might as well just allow nasty attacks and be done with it. At least the result woudl be more balanced and in line with everyday life. Continuing to maintain the false division between ideas and people just encourages worse and worse treatment of people. It skews the forum into having a default mode which is nasty - because it encourages nastiness couched as attacks on ideas.

Interestingly, the net result is exactly the same as the type of forum that tries to set up a "safe space". Pretending there is a division between ideas and people and then imposing that artificial construction as a rule is Rationalia's way of setting up a safe space. But we know that attempts to set up these safe spaces result in serious power imbalances as the people the space is designed to protect claim victimhood and then go on to exert power unjustly on others. That's why I'm back here. Rationalia holds exactly the same ideological/philosophical stance as Atheism Plus. The two places are just as bad as each other in that respect.

Ultimately yes I would encourage moderation - whether in an online forum, or discussion about islam, or anywhere - but I would base it on a participants' subjective judgement about the level of nastiness that could be tolerated, not on some absolutist rule which is philosophically unsound and leads to distorted conversations going on all the time.

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Re: Racism about islam can't exist: islam isn't a race: Poll

Post by Exi5tentialist » Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:38 pm

Forty Two wrote:So, when someone says "Catholicism is sexist and homophobic" that is not an attack on "Catholics" because everyone knows that not all Catholics are sexist and homophobic. Same with Islam
Actually I think that is an attack on "Catholics" and I think it's a quite justified one. If people associate themselves with a homophobic organisation like the RC Church or the Church of England then they must accept a level of culpability. What I wouldn't do is say "Christianity is homophobic" because there are many specifically LGBT churches. Similarly there are some LGBT muslim groups and organisations. Not a huge nubmer, but I can't turn round and a muslim who has just set up an LGBT mosque that their religion is homophobic. That makes no sense at all.

And I don't buy the crap that's talked about the contents of the Quran or the Bible. The people who wrote that meaningless drivel are deados. Religions are made by the living.
Wait, you just got through saying that we can't know what Islam is, because there are just too many different kinds of Islam, and now you say you know that Islam and Muslims are "one in the same. Nice that you deny anyone else the ability to say what Islam is, but you grant yourself that right. Another regressive leftist tendency, that
I don't deny that I'm guilty of using the word "Islam" in the singular. But just because the word is singular doesn't mean the thing it represents is a single thing. Also, the point of what I said was that all the versions of islam and all the versions muslims are not distinuishable as separate things, ideas aren't separate from the people who invent them. Religions are what people make them. Sorry that the phrase "one in the same" implies I see islam as monolithic - I absolutely do not and I do not think that means I'm guilty of the hypocrisy you suggest. I'm just saying there's no neat and tidy division between people and ideas. That's all I meant.

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Re: Racism about islam can't exist: islam isn't a race: Poll

Post by Exi5tentialist » Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:42 pm

Please take your issues regarding the rules to the appropriate section. The rules, like making sure not to diddle a person under the age 16, are pretty easy to follow. Just don't "call" someone names, or direct namecalling toward their person. That covers most of it, if not all of it.
That's pretty patronising but these rules have the effect of supporting a bigger ideology - one that encourages regressive attacks on muslims. It is totally relelvant to the subject of the thread, I'm just joining up the operation of the rules with the way the ideology is maintained here.

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Re: Racism about islam can't exist: islam isn't a race: Poll

Post by Brian Peacock » Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:24 pm

Exi5tentialist wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:The philocratic roots of an idea, any idea, is irrelevant here as it neither elevates nor degrades an idea automatically, and the formulation of dualism you present is, it seems to me, simply a necessary social construct which affords us the ability to both appraise and assess the merits or veracity ideas (claims, judgements, opinions, and preferences) from another's perspective as well as on and in their own terms at a step removed from the person and the personal
Sorry I don't know what you mean by philocratic and Google isn't very helpful could you explain please?
Of all the points in my post this is the one you choose to tie your flag to: citing, it would seem, a small failure in imagination on your part, and one to which you need only to apply a little context, yes, context I say, in order to grasp, as an adequate impetus to irrelevancies? Nonetheless, the fickle vagaries of language aside, it is otherwise quite clear what I intended in the sniplette above: the roots of any idea have no bearing on its merits or utility.
I don't agree that the "forumulation of dualism" I present is "simply a necessary social construct which affords us the ability to both appraise and assess the merits or veracity of ideas". I don't see it as being "a step removed" from the personal.
Splendid. I look forward to reading some further remarks which aim to support these bold assertions with more than a mere repetitious declarations. In other words, a relevant explication of the detail of your disagreement, with reference to my previous remarks, would be appreciated.

In the meantime, I have taken the liberty of riding your hobby horse to a pasture more suited to its digestion.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Racism about islam can't exist: islam isn't a race: Poll

Post by Exi5tentialist » Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:45 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Exi5tentialist wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:The philocratic roots of an idea, any idea, is irrelevant here as it neither elevates nor degrades an idea automatically, and the formulation of dualism you present is, it seems to me, simply a necessary social construct which affords us the ability to both appraise and assess the merits or veracity ideas (claims, judgements, opinions, and preferences) from another's perspective as well as on and in their own terms at a step removed from the person and the personal
Sorry I don't know what you mean by philocratic and Google isn't very helpful could you explain please?
Of all the points in my post this is the one you choose to tie your flag to: citing, it would seem, a small failure in imagination on your part, and one to which you need only to apply a little context, yes, context I say, in order to grasp, as an adequate impetus to irrelevancies? Nonetheless, the fickle vagaries of language aside, it is otherwise quite clear what I intended in the sniplette above: the roots of any idea have no bearing on its merits or utility.
I don't agree that the "forumulation of dualism" I present is "simply a necessary social construct which affords us the ability to both appraise and assess the merits or veracity of ideas". I don't see it as being "a step removed" from the personal.
Splendid. I look forward to reading some further remarks which aim to support these bold assertions with more than a mere repetitious declarations. In other words, a relevant explication of the detail of your disagreement, with reference to my previous remarks, would be appreciated.

In the meantime, I have taken the liberty of riding your hobby horse to a pasture more suited to its digestion.
What a conversation stopper

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Re: Racism about islam can't exist: islam isn't a race: Poll

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:45 am

I take it that you are declining my invitation to justify your assertions? No obligation, no matter. Your silence makes as strong a case as your postings.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Racism about islam can't exist: islam isn't a race: Poll

Post by piscator » Thu Mar 10, 2016 2:35 am

I remember saying something unkind in print about a short story that appeared in Esquire. It was by a woman writer. The story was not a bad story because it had been written by a woman, although that certainly didn't help.

Anyway, word got back to the writer's husband and he sent me a long letter calling me a bastard and a dirty so and so and threatening to shoot me in the street if he ever saw me. I remember he concluded the letter, "With Warm Regards."

That was the summer of '26 and during those months several people indicated they wished to shoot me, for various peculiar and complicated reasons. So I sent word around that I could be found unarmed and sitting in front of Lipp's brasserie from two to four in the afternoon on Saturdays and Sundays. Everybody who wished to shoot me was to do it then or else for Chrissakes stop talking about it.

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Re: Racism about islam can't exist: islam isn't a race: Poll

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Mar 10, 2016 3:13 am

:think:
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Re: Racism about islam can't exist: islam isn't a race: Poll

Post by JimC » Thu Mar 10, 2016 3:31 am

Piscator has a tendency to inject random stuff into threads every now and then. It's the posting equivalent of a nervous tick...
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Re: Racism about islam can't exist: islam isn't a race: Poll

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Mar 10, 2016 3:37 am

Posting Tourette's... :hehe:
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Re: Racism about islam can't exist: islam isn't a race: Poll

Post by Hermit » Thu Mar 10, 2016 3:57 am

rEvolutionist wrote: :think:
:whisper: He's been on a Hemingway binge for a few weeks now. :whisper:
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Re: Racism about islam can't exist: islam isn't a race: Poll

Post by JimC » Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:01 am

However, the various passages from Hemingway, literary gems though they well may be, are random with respect to the threads they are injected into.

But they do break the monotony of Exi's posts, I suppose...
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Re: Racism about islam can't exist: islam isn't a race: Poll

Post by laklak » Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:13 am

The tears stream down my face from my unblinking eyes. What makes me weep so? There is nothing saddening here. Perhaps it is liquefied brain.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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