Should you tell girls they are pretty?

[hadespussercats]

There is a sexism issue here isn't there? We don't (usually anyway) tell boys how handsome they are. So why do we tell girls they are pretty? To assure them they will be sexually attractive to males? Even if this is done unconsciously I think it does say something about the sexual politics of these things.

Sorry to be all serious and such..

I tell my son he's handsome all the time. He doesn't know what I'm talking about, but it makes me happy.

[Coito ergo sum]

We all say that being good looking doesn't matter, but we all want our kids to be good looking. It's everyone else's kids that don't need to be good looking.

[hadespussercats]

I'm crap at giving compliments about looks unless I mean it. I know people who do it with everyone no bother to them. I'm not keen of people saying things about my looks, I'm never sure am I supposed to return the compliment. Not only that I have a low opinion of my looks and compliments often make me wince. I'm not from a family where people talk like that. My parents were more likely to put me down than raise me up. I mainly talk to my nieces in a straight up and neutral way, I hate bullshitting them. Though if I notice things they're good at I point them out and encourage it without going overboard.

But you're so pretty!

[hadespussercats]

How many male hotel maids have you seen? The sexes are still differentiated and pushed in the direction of certain activities and roles, not universally but very commonly. Pink stuff, kitchen and doll related toys for girls, big noisy guns and such for boys. The roles are subtly and pretty remorcelessly reinforced. Of course people can override this 'programming' but arguably stressing the physical attributes of young girls it sending them a message that these factors are more important than others, related to power and authority, which boys are steered more towards.

Well no hotel maids. Maid describes a female and is outdated as a job descriptor. However having travelled all over I can say that you'd be surprised how many men I've tidy up my hotel room, even recently not far from where I was the hotel I was staying at was staffed predominantly by young men. My local Tesco metro, about 80% males to 20% females all in management positions. The cleaning firm who clean my stairs? A guy comes round every Friday morning. At which I can hear people already shouting "See the Patriarchy are taking up the jobs traditionally done by women!!!" There are female Prime Ministers and CEO's and Director's of the I.M.F. there are male part time cleaners and stay at home husbands.

Your second point. If you have Sky, turn it to the kids channels and watch some of todays adverts for children's products. The traditional ones are still there, jewellery making kits and Rip roaring action dinosaur cars certainly, but it's nowhere like the description you give, nor are they remorselessly enforced. I live in an area filled with childen, I don't see skipping ropes and "soldiers", I see rounders, football, hide and seek and occasional bouts of blind ugly violence, but it's not just boys kicking the shit out each other.

I used to see what you see, all the time in fact, but it's not the 1980's any more.

We've moved on. We have. Certainly there still remains some finesse issues here in the west as evinced by considering complimenting someone as "pretty" is some kind of social cultural taboo.

I agree that things have moved on enormously in the last few decades, however most senior managers are still male, most senior government people are male and in most of the developed world women's pay Is lower than men's for equivalent work. These aren't 'finesse' issues surely?

Odd that no women have so far contributed to this thread. Too busy doing housework I guess.

I think it says a lot that you didn't notice that several women contributed to the thread before you did.

[hadespussercats]

We all say that being good looking doesn't matter, but we all want our kids to be good looking. It's everyone else's kids that don't need to be good looking.

Well, my son is good-looking, no question. So I don't have to worry!

[Animavore]

I'm crap at giving compliments about looks unless I mean it. I know people who do it with everyone no bother to them. I'm not keen of people saying things about my looks, I'm never sure am I supposed to return the compliment. Not only that I have a low opinion of my looks and compliments often make me wince. I'm not from a family where people talk like that. My parents were more likely to put me down than raise me up. I mainly talk to my nieces in a straight up and neutral way, I hate bullshitting them. Though if I notice things they're good at I point them out and encourage it without going overboard.

But you're so pretty!

Why, thank you

[Audley Strange]

Well I wouldn't blame people for not wanting to be senior in anything, but really you are grasping at straws if you think that is why there are fewer women at the so called 'top' of the pile. It's a bit like suggesting that black people don't get to the top either because they would much prefer to still be slaves.

No I don't think that's why, I don't know and nor I think do you, nor did I suggest that women don't get to the top, you do. What is this "top" by the way? Are presidents and prime ministers and Captains of industry not enough at what point do you think we can say enough? When we have both a male and a female in charge of every business and government? You assume that there is some cultural wall stopping women from achieving High Office. Do you have evidence of this? Do you not think it a matter for the law?

I however have pointed out that the 3 main political parties, giving women favourable chances are still not getting the uptake. Universities and colleges giving women favourable chances are not getting the uptake. You can claim that's a cultural wall too, but given your examples are anachronistic, don't you think your position might be flimsy? Are you so easy to dismiss the possibility that there are jobs that which men or women are more likely to wish to advance in?

And it is NOTHING like suggesting black people don't get to the top because they would much prefer to be slaves. Stop trying to vilify any position but your self righteous one by comparing it to that atrocity. It comes across as desperate.

[Audley Strange]

How many male hotel maids have you seen? The sexes are still differentiated and pushed in the direction of certain activities and roles, not universally but very commonly. Pink stuff, kitchen and doll related toys for girls, big noisy guns and such for boys. The roles are subtly and pretty remorcelessly reinforced. Of course people can override this 'programming' but arguably stressing the physical attributes of young girls it sending them a message that these factors are more important than others, related to power and authority, which boys are steered more towards.

Well no hotel maids. Maid describes a female and is outdated as a job descriptor. However having travelled all over I can say that you'd be surprised how many men I've tidy up my hotel room, even recently not far from where I was the hotel I was staying at was staffed predominantly by young men. My local Tesco metro, about 80% males to 20% females all in management positions. The cleaning firm who clean my stairs? A guy comes round every Friday morning. At which I can hear people already shouting "See the Patriarchy are taking up the jobs traditionally done by women!!!" There are female Prime Ministers and CEO's and Director's of the I.M.F. there are male part time cleaners and stay at home husbands.

Your second point. If you have Sky, turn it to the kids channels and watch some of todays adverts for children's products. The traditional ones are still there, jewellery making kits and Rip roaring action dinosaur cars certainly, but it's nowhere like the description you give, nor are they remorselessly enforced. I live in an area filled with childen, I don't see skipping ropes and "soldiers", I see rounders, football, hide and seek and occasional bouts of blind ugly violence, but it's not just boys kicking the shit out each other.

I used to see what you see, all the time in fact, but it's not the 1980's any more.

We've moved on. We have. Certainly there still remains some finesse issues here in the west as evinced by considering complimenting someone as "pretty" is some kind of social cultural taboo.

I agree that things have moved on enormously in the last few decades, however most senior managers are still male, most senior government people are male and in most of the developed world women's pay Is lower than men's for equivalent work. These aren't 'finesse' issues surely?

Odd that no women have so far contributed to this thread. Too busy doing housework I guess.

I think it says a lot that you didn't notice that several women contributed to the thread before you did.

[Audley Strange]

Advertising has changed dramatically with the times, which goes to show that the culture drives the advertising, not vice versa.

There are threads around here somewhere that focus on dozens of old school advertisements that were overtly sexist without apology. Some are so hilariously inappropriate in today's milieu that we can only be amazed that people thought nothing of them back in the day.

Yes indeed it has, once it was used to sell products to people now it is used to sell lifestyles to consumers. I'm not sure if culture entirely drives advertising though as much as vested interests drive advertising to herd specific target markets into specific brand loyalties. These people don't throw money at something time and time again when it doesn't work. The subtexts of adverts are fascinating and the people who make them know exactly what they're up to.

[Coito ergo sum]

Who said it didn't work? They wouldn't do it if it didn't work.

Why should the fact that it works be a point against it?

[Jesus_of_Nazareth]

Not when you are stroking an Erection.

Yours or someone elses..........


FACT.