Attenborough Betrays His Age, Snubs Gay Animals

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Re: Attenborough Betrays His Age, Snubs Gay Animals

Post by Jason » Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:04 am

Audley Strange wrote:I accept that homosexuality, polyamoury, gang rape, paedophilia, incest, necrophilia, murder for fun, parasitosis and cannibalism are all part and parcel of the "majesty" of nature, there are documentaries I've seen about almost all of these things. I'm not sure people are that interested in being exposed to all of that in an early evening light entertainment documentary with the kids.
First, it's incredibly offensive that you'd lump homosexuality and polyamoury in with murder, paedophilia, et al.

Second, why should it be more 'interesting' to view a male and female bonobo fuck than a male-male? I mean, we're not talking zoophilia here, but if we were why should hetero be more acceptable than homo? That's precisely what needs to change.

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Re: Attenborough Betrays His Age, Snubs Gay Animals

Post by Mallardz » Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:22 am

University of East Anglia :haha:

Media studies :hilarious:
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Re: Attenborough Betrays His Age, Snubs Gay Animals

Post by Audley Strange » Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:22 am

@ Pord

Well I don't care if you are offended, but I don't see why you are, I'm not "lumping" anything, if you inferred that I thought such behaviours are equivalent that is your issue. I'm pointing out perfectly natural behaviours that almost all animals indulge in and as such why should we not focus on them and "teach" society that such things are perfectly natural. I don't understand why you have an issue with focussing on some of them but not others, if after all the purpose of David Attenborough's work should be to illuminate that we are part of the animal kingdom or should we only focus on things some people think is "good" nature and others "bad" nature?

I'd say that it wasn't Attenborough or the BBC's remit when making those specific series and that Mills is a wank for complaining about it since as a "Media Studies" lecturer, he should know fine well there are many documentaries that deal with such stuff.

What are you saying needs changed? Frankly I don't think the Bonobo fucking are interesting at all, so it makes no difference to me what the combination is. Now if, for example, they caught some footage of two apes sucking each others dicks or fucking each other and THEN said something like "this was not normal" or claimed it was a male and female, then I could see an issue.
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Re: Attenborough Betrays His Age, Snubs Gay Animals

Post by Jason » Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:34 am

Audley Strange wrote:Well I don't care if you are offended, but I don't see why you are, I'm not "lumping" anything, if you inferred that I thought such behaviours are equivalent that is your issue.
No. It's your issue. Because that's exactly what you did by implying they were all in the same category of 'natural' behaviours unacceptable in humans. People like you are part of the problem.

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Re: Attenborough Betrays His Age, Snubs Gay Animals

Post by Audley Strange » Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:39 am

I did not imply that such behaviours were acceptable or unacceptable at all, it is you who is making that distinction.

I'm part of the problem because I think some wank moaning needlessly about a Television programme is stupid? Do explain what problem and how I'm part of that.
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Re: Attenborough Betrays His Age, Snubs Gay Animals

Post by Jason » Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:42 am

Audley Strange wrote:I did not imply that such behaviours were acceptable or unacceptable at all, it is you who is making that distinction.

I'm part of the problem because I think some wank moaning needlessly about a Television programme is stupid? Do explain what problem and how I'm part of that.
Audley Strange wrote:I accept that homosexuality, polyamoury, gang rape, paedophilia, incest, necrophilia, murder for fun, parasitosis and cannibalism are all part and parcel of the "majesty" of nature, there are documentaries I've seen about almost all of these things. I'm not sure people are that interested in being exposed to all of that in an early evening light entertainment documentary with the kids.
Perhaps I misunderstood you then. It seems pretty clear to me you're implying that everything you listed is unacceptable. Correct me please.

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Re: Attenborough Betrays His Age, Snubs Gay Animals

Post by hadespussercats » Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:49 am

Audley Strange wrote:
hadespussercats wrote:
Audley Strange wrote:Yeah while we are on the subject. You ever watch those documentaries where Dawkins gleefully butchers animals with his pals? Well some humans are vegatarians, why don't we see them dissecting a carrot?
?

What are you talking about?

There are documentaries about botany, where we see plants in section and on slides and such. But I don't think that's what you're talking about.

Not sure though. Are you mad we never hear about gay radishes?
What I am talking about is that no matter what you create, perform or exhibit someone somewhere will complain it isn't inclusive of whatever bee they have in their bonnet. Imagine for example someone complaining that a documentary about the history of the Scots during the time of Calgacus, didn't have enough about the plight of disabled lesbians in it. I'm sure there were disabled lesbians in that era, I'm sure their plight might be fascinating however it's not about that. I accept that homosexuality, polyamoury, gang rape, paedophilia, incest, necrophilia, murder for fun, parasitosis and cannibalism are all part and parcel of the "majesty" of nature, there are documentaries I've seen about almost all of these things. I'm not sure people are that interested in being exposed to all of that in an early evening light entertainment documentary with the kids.
Fair enough, I suppose. Though being gay is hardly inappropriate for children-- particularly if you're watching mating behaviors en famille anyway.

Honestly, I haven't read the article in the OP-- I was just remarking that homosexual behavior is found throughout the animal kingdom. It's not standard behavior, but it's certainly not unusual. And if Attenborough in fact has never, in the many many documentaries he's made, touched upon that at all as a point of discussion, that does seem strange. Particularly when there are far stranger animal behaviors that get recorded/commented upon all the time, simply because they are unusual.

And to echo Fakuname's earlier sentiments, again, it's worth while for prominent naturalists and documentarians to be encouraged to make plain these matters (namely, the commonplace nature of homosexuality, and related concerns), not only because they are simple truth, but because they counter the all-too-common belief that homosexuality is unnatural, or a crime against nature.

Making a request towards this end is not the same thing as requiring that every documentarian needs must account for any and all variation amongst the subject he's exploring, or face being considered an exclusionary bigot. And yes, I realize there are people who think that way. They're idiots.
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Re: Attenborough Betrays His Age, Snubs Gay Animals

Post by Audley Strange » Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:59 am

Yes, I can see perhaps where the issue lies, so lets deal with that before we go any further. First of all I don't think any of these things are acceptable or unacceptable in the animal kingdom, they may offend certain sensibilities, but they all happen. If I had added Heterosexuality (and I will grant you that I should possibly have) to the beginning would it make it clearer? I am talking about animal behaviour. Especially in reference to this...
Dr Brett Mills, head of media studies at the University of East Anglia, said that while he doubted Sir David was deliberately ignoring the issues, homosexuality is "pretty much everywhere" in the animal world.
My point is so are all these other things, but it's a broad sweep programme, more like a tourist guide than a serious documentary. Any clown who's even smelled a media studies book should be able to tell the difference.

If BBC wanted to make a prime time documentary series about homosexuality being natural in humanity and the animal kingdom, I would not be complaining, I'd see it as a good thing, challenging perhaps, even confrontational. I have no issue with that at all. What I do take issue with is idiots that think everything needs to adhere to their dogma, it matters not to me if it's about sexual rights, equality or theology.

I'd be the same if they were complaining about the lack of interpretive dance on the news. The issue is his stupidity and that he should know better given his title.
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Re: Attenborough Betrays His Age, Snubs Gay Animals

Post by hadespussercats » Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:08 am

Audley Strange wrote:Yes, I can see perhaps where the issue lies, so lets deal with that before we go any further. First of all I don't think any of these things are acceptable or unacceptable in the animal kingdom, they may offend certain sensibilities, but they all happen. If I had added Heterosexuality (and I will grant you that I should possibly have) to the beginning would it make it clearer? I am talking about animal behaviour. Especially in reference to this...
Dr Brett Mills, head of media studies at the University of East Anglia, said that while he doubted Sir David was deliberately ignoring the issues, homosexuality is "pretty much everywhere" in the animal world.
My point is so are all these other things, but it's a broad sweep programme, more like a tourist guide than a serious documentary. Any clown who's even smelled a media studies book should be able to tell the difference.

If BBC wanted to make a prime time documentary series about homosexuality being natural in humanity and the animal kingdom, I would not be complaining, I'd see it as a good thing, challenging perhaps, even confrontational. I have no issue with that at all. What I do take issue with is idiots that think everything needs to adhere to their dogma, it matters not to me if it's about sexual rights, equality or theology.

I'd be the same if they were complaining about the lack of interpretive dance on the news. The issue is his stupidity and that he should know better given his title.
Well, I think I understand what you're getting at. In another thread sometime we can talk about racism and TLOTR.

But... I think there's something lost if homosexuality is cordoned off into its own special program. Namely, it's making explicit the sense that homosexual behavior is not a part of normal life. Plus, there's a sense (which you echoed in an earlier post) that if homosexuality is treated separately, it will be easier for those who don't want to think about the issue, or who think it's something shameful or dirty that needs to be hidden from the kids, to avoid learning uncomfortable facts.

Hey, everyone, forget Black History Month-- it's the Gay Animals Hour!
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Re: Attenborough Betrays His Age, Snubs Gay Animals

Post by Audley Strange » Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:17 am

hadespussercats wrote:
Fair enough, I suppose. Though being gay is hardly inappropriate for children-- particularly if you're watching mating behaviors en famille anyway.

Honestly, I haven't read the article in the OP-- I was just remarking that homosexual behavior is found throughout the animal kingdom. It's not standard behavior, but it's certainly not unusual. And if Attenborough in fact has never, in the many many documentaries he's made, touched upon that at all as a point of discussion, that does seem strange. Particularly when there are far stranger animal behaviors that get recorded/commented upon all the time, simply because they are unusual.

And to echo Fakuname's earlier sentiments, again, it's worth while for prominent naturalists and documentarians to be encouraged to make plain these matters (namely, the commonplace nature of homosexuality, and related concerns), not only because they are simple truth, but because they counter the all-too-common belief that homosexuality is unnatural, or a crime against nature.

Making a request towards this end is not the same thing as requiring that every documentarian needs must account for any and all variation amongst the subject he's exploring, or face being considered an exclusionary bigot. And yes, I realize there are people who think that way. They're idiots.

Well, I agree. Homosexual behaviour should be considered an appropriate topic for education purposes of children. However there are many people who think it not, who would, if exposed to it on a T.V. show like that just switch it off, they don't want to be exposed to that and they definitely don't want their children exposed to it. Sure you might think them idiots, I would too, but if we are showing an honest documentary about nature it would be a fucking brutal horrorshow which many other people would switch off and deter their kids from watching. The BBC made something of timeless mass appeal, they made those programmes for the broadest audience, not to shut out the unbelievers and only preach to the converted. I'd say rather that smarter people than Mills know exactly what they are doing and have been doing with those shows over the last 40 years.

Considering the liberal worldview the BBC these days, (I say these days, it's been challenging Establishment and working class homophobia directly since the seventies, which is as far back as I can recall, but I'd not be surprised if longer) I find if difficult to believe that this is an issue for anyone other than Mills. If his point was that society should be less outraged and appalled by homosexuality, perhaps he should fuck off out of media studies and instead focus on social studies.
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Re: Attenborough Betrays His Age, Snubs Gay Animals

Post by Audley Strange » Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:33 am

Also a topic about LOTR and racism would be interesting to me, but I feel a lot of you would think I was being obtuse when I said the whole thing is about a race war.
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Re: Attenborough Betrays His Age, Snubs Gay Animals

Post by hadespussercats » Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:51 am

Audley Strange wrote:Also a topic about LOTR and racism would be interesting to me, but I feel a lot of you would think I was being obtuse when I said the whole thing is about a race war.
Dayum! Start the thread. I think we might have some good stuff to talk about. :plot:
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Re: Attenborough Betrays His Age, Snubs Gay Animals

Post by Audley Strange » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:20 am

I do too, we often do, but it's way past my bedtime. Could you start, since you raised it? Go on... I'll respond in the morning.
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Re: Attenborough Betrays His Age, Snubs Gay Animals

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:26 am

Audley Strange wrote:
hadespussercats wrote:
Audley Strange wrote:Yeah while we are on the subject. You ever watch those documentaries where Dawkins gleefully butchers animals with his pals? Well some humans are vegatarians, why don't we see them dissecting a carrot?
?

What are you talking about?

There are documentaries about botany, where we see plants in section and on slides and such. But I don't think that's what you're talking about.

Not sure though. Are you mad we never hear about gay radishes?
What I am talking about is that no matter what you create, perform or exhibit someone somewhere will complain it isn't inclusive of whatever bee they have in their bonnet. Imagine for example someone complaining that a documentary about the history of the Scots during the time of Calgacus, didn't have enough about the plight of disabled lesbians in it. I'm sure there were disabled lesbians in that era, I'm sure their plight might be fascinating however it's not about that. I accept that homosexuality, polyamoury, gang rape, paedophilia, incest, necrophilia, murder for fun, parasitosis and cannibalism are all part and parcel of the "majesty" of nature, there are documentaries I've seen about almost all of these things. I'm not sure people are that interested in being exposed to all of that in an early evening light entertainment documentary with the kids.
Same point I made earlier, that went over some folks heads.
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Re: Attenborough Betrays His Age, Snubs Gay Animals

Post by hadespussercats » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:08 am

Audley Strange wrote:I do too, we often do, but it's way past my bedtime. Could you start, since you raised it? Go on... I'll respond in the morning.
Well, let's make a date to start a thread soon. Whoever gets to it first. My brain is too fried.
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