Racism about islam can't exist: islam isn't a race: Poll

[JimC]

Feck, it is clear from the context of the thread that this post:

http://www.rationalia.com/forum/viewtop ... 0#p1644830

was aimed at Exi. This is a reminder that such personal attacks are against our rules. Please keep the vigour of your posts to attacking arguments rather than posters.

Didn't Exi call JimC an racist in a "group attack?"

Still a bit too indirect. He said that islamophobia is a type of racism, and implied that the people he was arguing against in the thread were islamophobic. A little too tenuous, even for me, who usually likes to suspend 10 members before breakfast...

[JimC]

Muslims have the right to practice their religion in all western countries, as far as I'm aware. This does not mean that aspects or tenets of their religion, and the behaviour of some of their fellow muslims cannot be criticised, as long as even if it is neitherovergeneralised nor and blended with actual racism.

As an aside, christians have no rights to openly practice their religion in many muslim countries, including Saudi Arabia, and open atheists are in a great deal of danger...

I wasn't implying that generalising is forbidden, although I was implying it was unwise in the context we are speaking about, particularly when the typical generalisation about muslims is "they're all terrorists at heart" or the like...

[Forty Two]

Muslims have the right to practice their religion in all western countries, as far as I'm aware. This does not mean that aspects or tenets of their religion, and the behaviour of some of their fellow muslims cannot be criticised, as long as even if it is neitherovergeneralised nor and blended with actual racism.

As an aside, christians have no rights to openly practice their religion in many muslim countries, including Saudi Arabia, and open atheists are in a great deal of danger...

I wasn't implying that generalising is forbidden, although I was implying it was unwise in the context we are speaking about, particularly when the typical generalisation about muslims is "they're all terrorists at heart" or the like...

I have never once heard anyone ever say that Muslims were "all" anything, much less "all terrorists at heart" or any words to that effect or having anything close to that import or meaning. Have you ever heard that generalization actually uttered or written? By whom?

[JimC]

Generalised anti-islamic rhetoric is used (or at least implied) all the time by racist, rightwing groups here in Oz who protest every time a new mosque is proposed. Their argument is that every mosque is a breeding ground for jihad, a generalisation if there ever was one.

And these groups here and in the UK nicely illustrate the key point in this thread. Primarily, they are racist, anti-immigrant groups who have seized onto being anti-islamic because of the fear of terrorism in the general community. Exi claims that islamophobia is automatically racist; in reality, the racism comes first, and then they dress it up with fervour against all muslims. Fear of being lumped with such groups should not prevent reasoned arguments about the serious deficiencies of Islam as a religious ideology.

[laklak]

Stop being so goddamned rational! It's an Exi thread, Jim, but not as we know it.

[piscator]

He's not being rational, he's erecting a strawman. "Anyone who broadly criticizes Islam is a RWNJ."

Jihad is a Pillar of Islam. Of course mosques are breeding grounds of jihad.

Mosques are also focal points of Zakat another Pillar of Islam that's not going to go away.

Struggle + Money...yet most places in the Muslim world have open sewers and low immunization rates. They blame us.

[JimC]

He's not being rational, he's erecting a strawman. "Anyone who broadly criticizes Islam is a RWNJ."

Jihad is a Pillar of Islam. Of course mosques are breeding grounds of jihad.

Mosques are also focal points of Zakat another Pillar of Islam that's not going to go away.

Struggle + Money...yet most places in the Muslim world have open sewers and low immunization rates. They blame us.

Incorrect. I'm talking about people making sweeping negative generalisations about all muslims, not about Islam as a religion or an institution.

And it is pernicious nonsense to suggest that all mosques are breeding grounds of jihad (although it is sensible for authorities to gather intelligence). There are many moderate communities of muslims in Oz who have no truck with violent fundamentalists. Probably, this means that their Imams are selectively ignoring some parts of the Koran, but this is a good thing...

Having said that, I would have no objection to mosques where it has been proved that jihad being preached be closed down.

[Exi5tentialist]

Feck, it is clear from the context of the thread that this post:

http://www.rationalia.com/forum/viewtop ... 0#p1644830

was aimed at Exi. This is a reminder that such personal attacks are against our rules. Please keep the vigour of your posts to attacking arguments rather than posters.

Didn't Exi call JimC an racist in a "group attack?"

Still a bit too indirect. He said that islamophobia is a type of racism, and implied that the people he was arguing against in the thread were islamophobic. A little too tenuous, even for me, who usually likes to suspend 10 members before breakfast...

So just to be clear, does that mean I'm not supposed to call anyone here racist?

That hardly seems like a personal attack, even if stated directly. It's more a charge that the other party should seek to refute.

I don't know, this personal attack rule actually encourages personal attacks by getting people to shuffle the insulting words around even though the meaning is exactly the same and it discourages frank debate. No wonder the place is such a bickering nightmare.

[piscator]

I don't know, this personal attack rule actually encourages personal attacks by getting people to shuffle the insulting words around even though the meaning is exactly the same and it discourages frank debate. No wonder the place is such a bsnickering nightmare.

4.4/10 Laffed a little.

[JimC]

Feck, it is clear from the context of the thread that this post:

http://www.rationalia.com/forum/viewtop ... 0#p1644830

was aimed at Exi. This is a reminder that such personal attacks are against our rules. Please keep the vigour of your posts to attacking arguments rather than posters.

Didn't Exi call JimC an racist in a "group attack?"

Still a bit too indirect. He said that islamophobia is a type of racism, and implied that the people he was arguing against in the thread were islamophobic. A little too tenuous, even for me, who usually likes to suspend 10 members before breakfast...

So just to be clear, does that mean I'm not supposed to call anyone here racist?

That hardly seems like a personal attack, even if stated directly. It's more a charge that the other party should seek to refute.

I don't know, this personal attack rule actually encourages personal attacks by getting people to shuffle the insulting words around even though the meaning is exactly the same and it discourages frank debate. No wonder the place is such a bickering nightmare.

Calling someone on the forum a racist would be regarded as a PA. Describing the contents of a post as demonstrating racism does not. Them's the rules...

And Exi, if you don't like it, you know where the door is. Just close it gently behind you as you leave...

[piscator]

He's not being rational, he's erecting a strawman. "Anyone who broadly criticizes Islam is a RWNJ."

Jihad is a Pillar of Islam. Of course mosques are breeding grounds of jihad.

Mosques are also focal points of Zakat another Pillar of Islam that's not going to go away.

Struggle + Money...yet most places in the Muslim world have open sewers and low immunization rates. They blame us.

Incorrect. I'm talking about people making sweeping negative generalisations about all muslims, not about Islam as a religion or an institution.

And it is pernicious nonsense to suggest that all mosques are breeding grounds of jihad

Look up jihad. A Pillar of Islam, it means "Struggle", typically with oneself. But the High Holy Jihad is the spread of Islam, and the only sure path to Heaven is martyrdom in jihad.

You can't preach Islam without preaching jihad. It's all over Islamic Canon.

...(although it is sensible for authorities to gather intelligence). There are many moderate communities of muslims in Oz who have no truck with violent fundamentalists. Probably, this means that their Imams are selectively ignoring some parts of the Koran, but this is a good thing...

Having said that, I would have no objection to mosques where it has been proved that jihad being preached be closed down.

Who are you to tell these people what their religion needs to play up or down? A man's gonna do what his sensus Divinatus tells him to do.

And these people have brains too. They're much more sophisticated than to preach violent jihad on the infidel Australians from pulpits in Australia. You form study groups where talibs gather in each other's homes and litanize the long history of offenses against Islam. Then you chip in and send the best students on the Haj. When they come back, you remind them of their duties to themselves and the Body of Islam and set them on a Holy path of struggle of their own choosing.
Meanwhile, off the record, recruiters recruit recruits.

[Exi5tentialist]

Calling someone on the forum a racist would be regarded as a PA. Describing the contents of a post as demonstrating racism does not. Them's the rules...

So what about calling someone an islamophobe?

[JimC]

Calling someone on the forum a racist would be regarded as a PA. Describing the contents of a post as demonstrating racism does not. Them's the rules...

So what about calling someone an islamophobe?

Pretty much the same...

Comments can be legitimately described (and criticised if one wishes) for being islamophobic in nature (see Piscator's above...)

[JimC]

In response to piscator; as far as I'm concerned, muslims have a perfect right to practice their religion, just as a reformed baptist does. If they break the law, they suffer the penalty. Given current realities, muslims should not be surprised to have a greater degree of surveillance from police and intelligent agencies, but that's as far as it goes, unless one wants to become Donald Trump...

[pErvinalia]

I agree with this 100%. But one thing to keep in mind is that children are indoctrinated into this stuff, so by the time they get to adulthood it's perhaps a little too simplistic to say that a Muslim's sense of Islam is simply a set of ideas. It's also become part of their identity, via the indoctrination. So we need to tread a little carefully and recognise it's not always a case of someone just ditching a set of bad ideas when presented with the evidence for their badness. This is the perniciousness of religion, as it's based on "faith" and evidence never plays a part. So it's hard to use evidence as an argument against a faith position.

As an argument regarding manners and persuasion, sure.

As a legal argument, it's not a good one. No, we don't "need to tread a little carefully" unless we want to. See line regarding manners above.

In the marketplace of ideas, Islam is entitled to no "careful treading." If people find that treading carefully works for them, or if the context of etiquette in given situations militate against saying certain things -- for sure -- it's the same reason we dress for certain occasions, and govern the topics of conversation for certain occasions. And, as an atheist, I often hold my tongue around the religious -- it's a daily affair, governing my own speech.

But, I'll be damned if I'm going to let someone claim I'm a racist for saying that Islam is a shit religion. It's a shit religion. It sucks. It's the motherload of bad ideas. Mohammed should be drawn in embarrassing situations and caricatured freely. And, anyone suggesting that I am "damaging" or "dangerous" to Islam by saying that can screw off (obviously, not you -- just making the point).

I don't CARE if it's "damaging" to Islam. In fact, I hope it is damaging to Islam because I want it damaged. I want it debunked, and embarrassed, and I want people to quit that religion in droves. Please. That's called the marketplace of ideas, and it's no different than people who want others to abandon bad philosophies.

Calling it a "marketplace of ideas" is simplistic and totally ignores what I just said.

Also, it's not just a matter of manners. It's also a matter of rationality of the person (like Feck) generalising against every Muslim.