Should you tell girls they are pretty?

[Atheist-Lite]

That is why raising consciousness about these issues is important. Whilst most people think this is the way things have always been so things will remain the way they are, with women still second class citizens unable to compete as equals in a society which denigrates them to mere pretty scenary.

[Audley Strange]

Raising consciousness about what issues? Is this an issue? Or is it just symptomatic of allowing a pernicious conspiratorial ideology pollute the political sphere without any real analysis or vocal disagreement?

[Xamonas Chegwé]

I don't think that this is an issue that girls should worry their pretty little heads about.

[Audley Strange]

You don't think its tragic that we live in a society where people are so crippled by "feelings" they don't know whether calling someone "pretty" is a nice thing or "enforcing traditional gender roles of subservien.... blah blah blah...."

Personally I don't think people are and I think it shows something deeply dysfunctional about the whole skepchick crew, if the letter is in fact genuine and not another "talking endlessly point"

[Atheist-Lite]

The smartest women may not be the 'prettiest' and sometimes being 'pretty' trumps what is being said if a woman is 'smart and pretty'. The glass ceiling is still in place and women are still being paid less on average than their male counterparts despite very often leaving the education system with superior qualifications. I think there is a obsession about phyiscal appearance in women that is cultivated by immature males who perhaps aren't getting enough or something? This 'gruntish' culture is retrograde and harmful, and does need to be changed.

[Rum]

I think you are utterly wrong Rum. I hear mothers and girlfriends and friends of boys and young men comment all the time about the looks of young men. Sexual politics? Nah, just a bit of sometimes false confidence to help a bunch of emotionally bewildered often insecure group of children and young adults, if not actual pride in the person they are complimenting.

To be honest I think the whole idea of sexual politics is an insane doctrine made up by people who felt they were losers at some game and thus wished to change the rules in order to win, you know like a 3 year old being beat at monopoly might, and being a good parent you let them, for an easy life?

If I say to my good lady she looks great, or a young woman that her ass looks fantastic in that skirt, or to a young guy that he looks good in that suit, it's because that is what I think. It's not meant to flatter or embolden them, it's simply a comment in the same way as "I can't believe you eat liver!" is.

How many male hotel maids have you seen? The sexes are still differentiated and pushed in the direction of certain activities and roles, not universally but very commonly. Pink stuff, kitchen and doll related toys for girls, big noisy guns and such for boys. The roles are subtly and pretty remorcelessly reinforced. Of course people can override this 'programming' but arguably stressing the physical attributes of young girls it sending them a message that these factors are more important than others, related to power and authority, which boys are steered more towards.

[Animavore]

I'm crap at giving compliments about looks unless I mean it. I know people who do it with everyone no bother to them. I'm not keen of people saying things about my looks, I'm never sure am I supposed to return the compliment. Not only that I have a low opinion of my looks and compliments often make me wince. I'm not from a family where people talk like that. My parents were more likely to put me down than raise me up. I mainly talk to my nieces in a straight up and neutral way, I hate bullshitting them. Though if I notice things they're good at I point them out and encourage it without going overboard.

[Audley Strange]

@ Crumple

Well I disagree. It is not men who perpetuate the superficial obsession about physical appearance, it is advertising and magazines nor is it only targeted towards women. I'd suggest that this culture has arisen to prominence because in the attempt to remove the traditional gender roles from public discourse, we've engineered a situation where people are utterly confused not knowing the difference between natural tendencies and socio-political taboo. We've been leaving a lot of insecure individuals scrambling about to create an identity from whatever scraps the media throws at them, leading to some abominable people being considered role models and a situation where superficiality trumps depth.

In any given situation in our popular culture "Handsome" or "Pretty" outweighs "Smart" every time. I do not think this has anything to do with sexual or gender politics. Is that what you mean by gruntish?

The pay issue is, if it is an actual issue, a legal issue.

[Audley Strange]

How many male hotel maids have you seen? The sexes are still differentiated and pushed in the direction of certain activities and roles, not universally but very commonly. Pink stuff, kitchen and doll related toys for girls, big noisy guns and such for boys. The roles are subtly and pretty remorcelessly reinforced. Of course people can override this 'programming' but arguably stressing the physical attributes of young girls it sending them a message that these factors are more important than others, related to power and authority, which boys are steered more towards.

Well no hotel maids. Maid describes a female and is outdated as a job descriptor. However having travelled all over I can say that you'd be surprised how many men I've tidy up my hotel room, even recently not far from where I was the hotel I was staying at was staffed predominantly by young men. My local Tesco metro, about 80% males to 20% females all in management positions. The cleaning firm who clean my stairs? A guy comes round every Friday morning. At which I can hear people already shouting "See the Patriarchy are taking up the jobs traditionally done by women!!!" There are female Prime Ministers and CEO's and Director's of the I.M.F. there are male part time cleaners and stay at home husbands.

Your second point. If you have Sky, turn it to the kids channels and watch some of todays adverts for children's products. The traditional ones are still there, jewellery making kits and Rip roaring action dinosaur cars certainly, but it's nowhere like the description you give, nor are they remorselessly enforced. I live in an area filled with childen, I don't see skipping ropes and "soldiers", I see rounders, football, hide and seek and occasional bouts of blind ugly violence, but it's not just boys kicking the shit out each other.

I used to see what you see, all the time in fact, but it's not the 1980's any more.

We've moved on. We have. Certainly there still remains some finesse issues here in the west as evinced by considering complimenting someone as "pretty" is some kind of social cultural taboo.

[Pappa]

I think you are utterly wrong Rum. I hear mothers and girlfriends and friends of boys and young men comment all the time about the looks of young men. Sexual politics? Nah, just a bit of sometimes false confidence to help a bunch of emotionally bewildered often insecure group of children and young adults, if not actual pride in the person they are complimenting.

To be honest I think the whole idea of sexual politics is an insane doctrine made up by people who felt they were losers at some game and thus wished to change the rules in order to win, you know like a 3 year old being beat at monopoly might, and being a good parent you let them, for an easy life?

If I say to my good lady she looks great, or a young woman that her ass looks fantastic in that skirt, or to a young guy that he looks good in that suit, it's because that is what I think. It's not meant to flatter or embolden them, it's simply a comment in the same way as "I can't believe you eat liver!" is.

I find that deeply offensive. I happen to like liver.

[Audley Strange]

Yes but you're just training to be a zombie. Actually it amuses me to think that there will be zombies who were once vegetarian. Why am I talking about vegetarian zombies?

[Drewish]

There is a sexism issue here isn't there? We don't (usually anyway) tell boys how handsome they are. So why do we tell girls they are pretty? To assure them they will be sexually attractive to males? Even if this is done unconsciously I think it does say something about the sexual politics of these things.

Sorry to be all serious and such..

I got told I was a rather handsome fellow all the time growing up. Clearly it helped me to develop my healthy sense of self worth

[Rum]

How many male hotel maids have you seen? The sexes are still differentiated and pushed in the direction of certain activities and roles, not universally but very commonly. Pink stuff, kitchen and doll related toys for girls, big noisy guns and such for boys. The roles are subtly and pretty remorcelessly reinforced. Of course people can override this 'programming' but arguably stressing the physical attributes of young girls it sending them a message that these factors are more important than others, related to power and authority, which boys are steered more towards.

Well no hotel maids. Maid describes a female and is outdated as a job descriptor. However having travelled all over I can say that you'd be surprised how many men I've tidy up my hotel room, even recently not far from where I was the hotel I was staying at was staffed predominantly by young men. My local Tesco metro, about 80% males to 20% females all in management positions. The cleaning firm who clean my stairs? A guy comes round every Friday morning. At which I can hear people already shouting "See the Patriarchy are taking up the jobs traditionally done by women!!!" There are female Prime Ministers and CEO's and Director's of the I.M.F. there are male part time cleaners and stay at home husbands.

Your second point. If you have Sky, turn it to the kids channels and watch some of todays adverts for children's products. The traditional ones are still there, jewellery making kits and Rip roaring action dinosaur cars certainly, but it's nowhere like the description you give, nor are they remorselessly enforced. I live in an area filled with childen, I don't see skipping ropes and "soldiers", I see rounders, football, hide and seek and occasional bouts of blind ugly violence, but it's not just boys kicking the shit out each other.

I used to see what you see, all the time in fact, but it's not the 1980's any more.

We've moved on. We have. Certainly there still remains some finesse issues here in the west as evinced by considering complimenting someone as "pretty" is some kind of social cultural taboo.

I agree that things have moved on enormously in the last few decades, however most senior managers are still male, most senior government people are male and in most of the developed world women's pay Is lower than men's for equivalent work. These aren't 'finesse' issues surely?

Odd that no women have so far contributed to this thread. Too busy doing housework I guess.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Can't we instill a sense of self-worth and a positive image without the need to reference exteriors?

[FBM]

Can't we instill a sense of self-worth and a positive image without the need to reference exteriors?