Circumcision - a rational debate

[charlou]

This new General serious discussion forum allows bots and guests, which I hope may draw newcomers into the forum and to participate in the discussions within.

I've got very strong views about circumcision, almost as strong, if not as strong as those of lordpasternack, who I hope will participate in this thread with her no-nonsense and informative contributions on the topic. I'd appreciate that very much, lordp.

I'll begin with a brief summary of some of my thoughts and views regarding the circumcision of male individuals.

I think it is extremely unethical to alter the body of another human being without their consent, unless it is for genuine health reasons. There are rarely health reasons which require full circumcision of the male foreskin. The vast majority of reasons given are fallacious and unsupported by evidence ... they're either now considered unnecessary, such as for hygiene (we don't live like savages anymore and have running water and soap these days) or require far less alteration (mutilation) of the penis than full circumcision, or the even more unnecessary and abhorrent cultural reasons, including aesthetic, traditional (rites of passage, 'like father like son', etc) and superstitious reasons.

There are also very good reasons for retaining an intact foreskin which are associated with sexual pleasure for both the owner of the foreskin and his partner (male of female). The skin itself and the frenulum are rich in nerves, the protection of the glans which keeps it soft and sensitive, and the gliding movement of the foreskin on the erect shaft of the penis which makes intercourse more natural, with minimal friction.

Most circumcised men are unaware of what they've lost because they never had it to begin with - it was removed when they were too young to protest outside infantile screaming their pain. There are studies** which suggest that, though males don't consciously remember this pain, it may have an enduring subconscious effect on their psyche.

A growing number of circumcised men are wanting to restore what was lost to them, the extra skin covering the glans and the gliding movement during sex, and there are various 'foreskin' restorers available which stretch the skin over time. While I admire and support this trend, I find it sadly pathetic, as their natural foreskins should never have been removed in the first place.


** I'm aware that such studies are so far non-conclusive for various reasons, but personally I take the view that everything we experience impacts upon our psyche in some way. It's also my view that a society which usurps ownership of the bodies and natural sexual function of it's individual members is fundamentally undermining and perverting the ego and the autonomy of those individuals.

[Chinaski]

Foreskin is gross/hilarious. Off with it.

...is the view of Americans. I like mine, people shouldn't cut penis parts off. While I don't think it's that big of an issue, or that it merits such strong opinions, it's just silly.

[Pappa]

...even more unnecessary and abhorrent cultural reasons, including aesthetic, traditional (rites of passage, 'like father like son', etc) and superstitious reasons.

I'm going to stick my head above the parapet here and no doubt get some flak... but... while they may no longer be valid in our increasingly homogenised world culture, I think traditional rites of passage were valid reasons in some circumstances. I was persuaded of this very recently after I reading a book about the Yirawara aborigines written in the 1960s (when some of them were still living fairly traditional lives). Before acculturation, circumcision was an integral part of every male's passage into adulthood. Far from being a "my father did it to me, so I'm going to do it to you" rite, the men appear to have gone into it willingly and without later regret. As adults, they also indulged in penis bifrucation at important rites, using the blood from their penises in a sacred manner. I have no idea if male circumcision rites in other parts of the world (or even Australia) are/were as voluntary, but from the little I know if the Yirawara, that does seem to be so. The anthropologist who studied them also suggested that the circumcision rite also served the very useful and non-sacred social function of "toughening up" the men to the hardships of life (caused by desert living).

You could go down the route of, "It's woo though", but that would be assuming Western culture has some primacy and right to dictate to the "less civilised" how to live. I'm certainly not a subscriber to the idea that all cultural values are equal, but I do think all cultures should have the right to be self-contained and self-determining if they so wish. I'd agree that an individual's human rights should trump cultural rights in cases where the culture may be harming the individual (such as with female circumcision) but if not, we should have no right to try to dictate how they choose to live (no matter how bizarre or repugnant their ways may seem to us).

*Pappa puts on helmet and flak jacket and hides behind the sofa.*

[Feck]

Cultural rites of passage aside ,why is it cutting your baby boys accepted in western cultures ?
If you cut bits off yourself as an adult they try and section you , if you cut bits off someone else with their permission
then both of you can be charged with assault.It is illegal to strike a child ,but taking a blade to it's tiny member is not . :twisted:

[Thinking Aloud]

I used to have one, and now I don't. It was removed for medical reasons (entirely unretractable and would have made intercourse potentially very painful) and at the time there weren't really any other options offered. So I kind of know what I'm missing; I also know that it's bloody painful - and pain is so much easier to bear when you know what's going on. My son has the same thing, unsurprisingly, but he/we will look at the options as and when it becomes an issue as he gets older.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I used to have one, and now I don't. It was removed for medical reasons (entirely unretractable and would have made intercourse potentially very painful) and at the time there weren't really any other options offered. So I kind of know what I'm missing; I also know that it's bloody painful - and pain is so much easier to bear when you know what's going on. My son has the same thing, unsurprisingly, but he/we will look at the options as and when it becomes an issue as he gets older.

What options have you considered?

Myself, still intact, and happy that way. I see no need to be cutting on new borns. And the idiotic idea that new borns don't feel pain is, finally, get the boot.

[Thinking Aloud]

What options have you considered?

For my son? To be honest, aside from LP's previous advice on RDF, we've not looked any further into it yet. He's only 4. For myself, I'm not worried.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

What options have you considered?

For my son? To be honest, aside from LP's previous advice on RDF, we've not looked any further into it yet. He's only 4. For myself, I'm not worried.

One thing I've thought about is that circumcision, for a male at least, is not a disaster. I've had body parts removed that I miss much more than my foreskin would be missed.

[Hermit]

I've had body parts removed that I miss much more than my foreskin would be missed.

Your brain?

If you are a muslim male, you are almost certainly circumcised. 30% of all men are, and 68% in turn are muslims. 21% of the planet's population is muslim. (Several other religious denominations and sects also encourage or demand the cutting off of foreskin.) Do the maths, and you'll see that circumcision is mainly a religious rite. It has sweet fuck all to do with pragmatic utility, and I heartily join those who are disgusted and enraged by traditions, of which circumcision is but one, that involve the mutilation of babies and infants by superstitious adults.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I've had body parts removed that I miss much more than my foreskin would be missed.

Your brain?

Just a bit from the front. You can still see the scar. (Actually, the removal was not a formal procedure. The repairs were, however, rather stylized.)

[The Curious Squid]

I had this done as a child and for most of my life it didn't bother me.

Last year a friend of mine found out that he has a tight foreskin and it was recommended that he should get the operation too, when he asked me I told him that it really didn't bother me and that if it was going to help his sex life then he should probably do it. After he spoke to the doctor about all the possible things that being circumcised can affect we had another discussion, some of the things he told me explained a lot about myself that I hadn't questioned because in my mind it was just the way things were, the more he spoke the angrier I got about the whole affair and now I'm more than just a little angry about my mother's choice to get me cut.

LordP talked me through some of the alternatives too and at least my mate can avoid going through the same ordeal as me because of it.

Thanks for that LP

[Existentialist1844]

Personally, I dont see the big fret over being circumsized or not. Im not traumatized from it. I dont wake up in the middle of the night from horrific nightmares because of that day.

[Existentialist1844]

Most circumcised men are unaware of what they've lost because they never had it to begin with - it was removed when they were too young to protest outside infantile screaming their pain. There are studies** which suggest that, though males don't consciously remember this pain, it may have an enduring subconscious effect on their psyche.

** I'm aware that such studies are so far non-conclusive for various reasons, but personally I take the view that everything we experience impacts upon our psyche in some way. It's also my view that a society which usurps ownership of the bodies and natural sexual function of it's individual members is fundamentally undermining and perverting the ego and the autonomy of those individuals.

Are you also aware that babies and children have a very strong resiliency to "bounce back" from trauma (depending on upbrining). Research has shown this. Thus, if a child has a proper upbrining and is able to develop resiliency, would one event (circumsicion) have an enduring effect on an individuals psyche? There are many developmental psychologists that would say no, and others might say yes.

I just thought Id bring up an opposing POV.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Most circumcised men are unaware of what they've lost because they never had it to begin with - it was removed when they were too young to protest outside infantile screaming their pain. There are studies** which suggest that, though males don't consciously remember this pain, it may have an enduring subconscious effect on their psyche.

** I'm aware that such studies are so far non-conclusive for various reasons, but personally I take the view that everything we experience impacts upon our psyche in some way. It's also my view that a society which usurps ownership of the bodies and natural sexual function of it's individual members is fundamentally undermining and perverting the ego and the autonomy of those individuals.

Are you also aware that babies and children have a very strong resiliency to "bounce back" from trauma (depending on upbrining). Research has shown this. Thus, if a child has a proper upbrining and is able to develop resiliency, would one event (circumsicion) have an enduring effect on an individuals psyche? There are many developmental psychologists that would say no, and others might say yes.

I just thought Id bring up an opposing POV.

What is upbrining? I thought it was a typo but you used it twice so it can't be. Is it some weird saltwater therapy of your own devising? Like water-boarding or some shit?

[Existentialist1844]

Most circumcised men are unaware of what they've lost because they never had it to begin with - it was removed when they were too young to protest outside infantile screaming their pain. There are studies** which suggest that, though males don't consciously remember this pain, it may have an enduring subconscious effect on their psyche.

** I'm aware that such studies are so far non-conclusive for various reasons, but personally I take the view that everything we experience impacts upon our psyche in some way. It's also my view that a society which usurps ownership of the bodies and natural sexual function of it's individual members is fundamentally undermining and perverting the ego and the autonomy of those individuals.

Are you also aware that babies and children have a very strong resiliency to "bounce back" from trauma (depending on upbrining). Research has shown this. Thus, if a child has a proper upbrining and is able to develop resiliency, would one event (circumsicion) have an enduring effect on an individuals psyche? There are many developmental psychologists that would say no, and others might say yes.

I just thought Id bring up an opposing POV.

What is upbrining? I thought it was a typo but you used it twice so it can't be. Is it some weird saltwater therapy of your own devising? Like water-boarding or some shit?

The "G" on my keyboard has been getting stuck sometimes. UPBRINGING. And weird that it happened on the same word twice in the same place :::eerie music playing in background::: Either that, or it was just a type-o