You reap what you sow, unless you're a socialist.

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You reap what you sow, unless you're a socialist.

Post by Sean Hayden » Fri Feb 19, 2021 4:11 pm

I read a tweet following one of Tero's links that mentioned people were unprepared for the winter storm in Texas because that's what it means to live paycheck to paycheck; people literally can't have what they need because of their circumstances. I disagree. I think in many cases they can prepare. But more importantly, I think it's a mistake to advocate for safety nets because it's society's fault people suffer in situations like this.

If we were able to look into the lives of people living paycheck to paycheck, we would find they had opportunities to prepare but chose not to. Good, society is off the hook then. They are reaping what they sowed...
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Re: You reap what you sow, unless you're a socialist.

Post by Cunt » Fri Feb 19, 2021 4:29 pm

Preparing IS expensive. When I lived more paycheck to paycheck, I found that the inertia I have now, looked like bewildering wealth.

Every winter, I would have moved, and needed new jacket, boots and work gear. Every winter, it would cost more and more. My colleagues who had their shit together, would pull their old gear out of storage, and be 'ahead of me' by a few hundred bucks each season.

This goes into many more areas, and it isn't easy to 'prepare'. I was preparing for some kinds of unrest/civil upset. None of my prep was suitable for the kind of civil upset we have now. The prep, however, as a habit, translates. I know more often what to discard, what to keep.

If someone doesn't get themselves winter gear, they WILL die. I worked with homeless men in the area, and winter after winter, some of them would stay outside, preferring to drink every dollar over acquiring and securing housing/clothing/personal equipment.

It's why socialism is something I really like, but don't think I would ever vote for. The socialists never seem to be able to say where the limit should be. Open borders and locked front doors are the 'positions' held by almost every pro-socialist I know.
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Hermit wrote:
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Re: You reap what you sow, unless you're a socialist.

Post by Sean Hayden » Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:49 pm

You're not prepared for the "civil upset" you're facing?

Man, that might even test my willingness to see you helped. --farkin Canadians man :lol:

--//--
I worked with homeless men in the area, and winter after winter, some of them would stay outside, preferring to drink every dollar over acquiring and securing housing/clothing/personal equipment.
...society is off the hook then.
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Re: You reap what you sow, unless you're a socialist.

Post by Tero » Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:59 pm

They should just move into apartments. The government can pay the rent. :hehe:
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Re: You reap what you sow, unless you're a socialist.

Post by Sean Hayden » Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:23 pm

An alcoholic'll fuck up a handout too, even if it's a place to live. --society is off the hook again.
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Re: You reap what you sow, unless you're a socialist.

Post by Cunt » Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:03 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:49 pm
You're not prepared for the "civil upset" you're facing?

Man, that might even test my willingness to see you helped. --farkin Canadians man :lol:

--//--
I worked with homeless men in the area, and winter after winter, some of them would stay outside, preferring to drink every dollar over acquiring and securing housing/clothing/personal equipment.
...society is off the hook then.
Society isn't ON the hook. Assuming it is, is kind of the problem I described about 'The Socialists'. I don't want them neglected and dying. I also don't want to have to do O&M on their housing units. Where is that balancing point?
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I don't want to forget this enlightening quote by our prestigious and sage member...
Hermit wrote:
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Trump supporters are fundamentally racist.

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Re: You reap what you sow, unless you're a socialist.

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:21 pm

I don't think anyone really chooses to be an alcoholic, drug addict, mentally ill, or homeless etc, any more than they choose to live paycheck to paycheck, or be unemployed, or to have the resources only to afford one coat or pair of shoes at a time.

We know that society isn't a meritocracy, that people start from a situation they had no choice in, and that anyone can be brought low (or even raised up) when circumstances beyond their immediate control change, or just by dumb luck. We also know that, despite our good intentions, some of our own choice don't always have the effects we hope for, that sometimes we do make things better and sometimes we make them worse, and often that things just didn't really change one way or another despite the robustness of our calculations or the earnestness of our desires.

The idea that people are entirely in charge of themselves and/or their environment starts to break down almost as soon as you start to examine it - not least from our own perspective. If that is true for us then perhaps we can also allow it to be true for others, try and avoid blaming them for the circumstances they find themselves in, and then maybe offer the kind of support we would benefit from if we were in their situation??

We might consider ourselves relatively fortunate today, but we might not be so lucky tomorrow.


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Re: You reap what you sow, unless you're a socialist.

Post by Sean Hayden » Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:37 pm

If we look at the lives of the well-off we will see similar failures. A man buys an expensive house just before he's laid off, the housing market implodes and he's forced to sell for thousands less than he paid and go broke in the process. He could have bought a cheaper house, been more realistic about his earning potential going forward, or less concerned with impressing Miami etc.

In both situations opportunities will have been missed.
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Re: You reap what you sow, unless you're a socialist.

Post by Cunt » Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:39 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:21 pm
I don't think anyone really chooses to be an alcoholic, drug addict, mentally ill, or homeless etc, any more than they choose to live paycheck to paycheck, or be unemployed, or to have the resources only to afford one coat or pair of shoes at a time.
I don't like the word 'choice' because it screws up. An exaggerated example:
Lady makes porn. Recordings include her acknowledgement of what she's doing.

Later, she feels terrible, claims it was not her choice.

That's the short version. I don't care much about the specifics of the case, but could you tell her it was her choice, and she should just accept that society is that way?

Personally, I would have a tough time insisting that her 'choice' (made at 18, while in the throes of drug addiction) was totally her doing, while she was complaining of her 'historic' videos.

Choice isn't what we think it is. A kid chooses a university degree, and signs up for LONG term debt, then only later has the maturity to realize the degree was worthless.

Did that student choose to toss their life away?


We know that society isn't a meritocracy, that people start from a situation they had no choice in, and that anyone can be brought low (or even raised up) when circumstances beyond their immediate control change, or just by dumb luck.
I disagree about 'isn't a meritocracy'. It isn't FULLY a meritocracy, but much of it is. With running, I could do a lot better if I had started athletics in high school, and maintained it throughout. I'll NEVER be the athlete I could have been, with the right support.

However, meritocracy still applies. I can run-train, starting now, and do better than someone who doesn't earn any of that 'merit'.

We also know that, despite our good intentions, some of our own choice don't always have the effects we hope for, that sometimes we do make things better and sometimes we make them worse, and often that things just didn't really change one way or another despite the robustness of our calculations or the earnestness of our desires.

The idea that people are entirely in charge of themselves and/or their environment starts to break down almost as soon as you start to examine it - not least from our own perspective. If that is true for us then perhaps we can also allow it to be true for others, try and avoid blaming them for the circumstances they find themselves in, and then maybe offer the kind of support we would benefit from if we were in their situation??

We might consider ourselves relatively fortunate today, but we might not be so lucky tomorrow.
Oh, we ARE lucky. You and I are probably the global 1%. We are certainly the most privileged, wealthy humans to ever have lived.

We are also very poor, and uninfluential. The hardest work you could do, if you did a GREAT job all your whole life, would pale in comparison to the accomplishment of truly great men.

How are we supposed to earn our share of 'merit', when a guy wins the nobel (the year I was born, I think) for saving a BILLION people's lives?

What do you do, when some of your 'society' decides that the best thing they could work on was to destroy society?
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Hermit wrote:
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Re: You reap what you sow, unless you're a socialist.

Post by Hermit » Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:46 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:21 pm
I don't think anyone really chooses to be an alcoholic, drug addict, mentally ill, or homeless etc, any more than they choose to live paycheck to paycheck, or be unemployed, or to have the resources only to afford one coat or pair of shoes at a time.

We know that society isn't a meritocracy, that people start from a situation they had no choice in, and that anyone can be brought low (or even raised up) when circumstances beyond their immediate control change, or just by dumb luck. We also know that, despite our good intentions, some of our own choice don't always have the effects we hope for, that sometimes we do make things better and sometimes we make them worse, and often that things just didn't really change one way or another despite the robustness of our calculations or the earnestness of our desires.

The idea that people are entirely in charge of themselves and/or their environment starts to break down almost as soon as you start to examine it - not least from our own perspective. If that is true for us then perhaps we can also allow it to be true for others, try and avoid blaming them for the circumstances they find themselves in, and then maybe offer the kind of support we would benefit from if we were in their situation??

We might consider ourselves relatively fortunate today, but we might not be so lucky tomorrow.
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I am keenly aware of the fact that my luck and whatever good or bad effect I had on others was much more a consequence of when, where and under what circumstances I was born and raised in than anything I might have done as an (allegedly) autonomous being.
So you talk about mobs and the working classes as if they were the question. You've got that eternal idiotic idea that if anarchy came it would come from the poor. Why should it? The poor have been rebels, but they have never been anarchists; they have more interest than anyone else in there being some decent government. The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all. Aristocrats were always anarchists. - G.K. Chesterton

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Re: You reap what you sow, unless you're a socialist.

Post by JimC » Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:52 pm

It's the old "Grasshopper vs Ants" fable all over again...
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Re: You reap what you sow, unless you're a socialist.

Post by Hermit » Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:01 pm

JimC wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:52 pm
It's the old "Grasshopper vs Ants" fable all over again...
It's a fable I don't care for. At all. The first indication of how little control we have over our lives was when someone pointed out to me that what gods we believe in depends chiefly on where we are born. It also was one major stepping stone towards becoming an agnostic atheist.
So you talk about mobs and the working classes as if they were the question. You've got that eternal idiotic idea that if anarchy came it would come from the poor. Why should it? The poor have been rebels, but they have never been anarchists; they have more interest than anyone else in there being some decent government. The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all. Aristocrats were always anarchists. - G.K. Chesterton

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Re: You reap what you sow, unless you're a socialist.

Post by Cunt » Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:04 pm

Suggesting that the ants should support the grasshoppers, but how many?

That's always the questions pro-socialist folks don't answer well. Where is the limit of what a citizen can be expected to share? How many freeloaders should be welcomed, vs how many workers?
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I don't want to forget this enlightening quote by our prestigious and sage member...
Hermit wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:41 am
Trump supporters are fundamentally racist.

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Re: You reap what you sow, unless you're a socialist.

Post by Sean Hayden » Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:10 pm

I see the focus on blaming society as providing the means to justify not helping people.

--//--

You either help people or you don't Cunt. There's no science of life which might guide your decisions here. That's why I find our Tweeter's "paycheck to paycheck" comment so disagreeable. It invites that kind of analysis.
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Re: You reap what you sow, unless you're a socialist.

Post by Hermit » Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:26 pm

Freeloaders. Mhhhhh...
So you talk about mobs and the working classes as if they were the question. You've got that eternal idiotic idea that if anarchy came it would come from the poor. Why should it? The poor have been rebels, but they have never been anarchists; they have more interest than anyone else in there being some decent government. The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all. Aristocrats were always anarchists. - G.K. Chesterton

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