If you Live in Freedom, Thank the British Empire

[Rum]

It isn’t all that silly really. It is surprising, once the Romans left, how quickly their direct influence faded and how quickly Rome was ‘forgotten’. The country broke up pretty quickly into warring principalities, waves of migration and invasion happened to at various points.

The key is the Church and it’s arrival in some force in the 6th century. Monasteries and the clergy kept Latin alive and it became the language of learning.

[Hermit]

I tend to agree. ‘Rights’ have rarely been given away - though I do think idealism can be overlooked as a force in history.

Yes, ideals are an effective tool when they suit the circumstance in which they are called upon to assist. Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations, for example, was a powerful catalyst for the development of capitalism when the industrial revolution came into its stride.

[Forty Two]

Republic is an English word traces back to 1600ad - it is traced to Middle French "republique" which was traced before that to Latin, and before that it traces to the Latin translation of the Greek "politeia."

The Romans never told the English anything, as I said. Words and languages evolve over time. In 434, there were no "English." There was no English language. The Anglo Saxon migration occurred in the 5th and 6th centuries.

Of course the word comes from Latin - every European language derives its word for a republic from Latin. Norwegians say "Republikk," Latvians say Republika, Afrikaaners say Republiek, Albanians say republike, Azerbaijanis say Respublka, Germans say Republik, etc. Various waves of migrations occurred, and the mixture in Britain formed a new Germanic language spoken by Anglo-Saxons - Old English. These are all newer languages than Latin and Greek, obviously.

Moreover, we ought not conflate the word with the concept. As Norse culture had a concept of a republic independent of the Greek and Latin concept.

For example, the Icelandic and Faroese word for "republic" is lýðveldið. That word is not a child of Latin. Icelandic is directly related to Old Norse (which used to be spoken in Norway, Denmark, Sweden, and nearby. So, just because a people or language did not have THE word republic doesn't mean they were without a word for the concept of a republic.

Also, history began about 5,000 years ago or so. Before that it's "prehistory."

[Hermit]

It isn’t all that silly really. It is surprising, once the Romans left, how quickly their direct influence faded and how quickly Rome was ‘forgotten’. The country broke up pretty quickly into warring principalities, waves of migration and invasion happened to at various points.

Which makes Lloyd George's arrogance all the more breathtaking. FFS, with the exception of the eleven year interregnum England has always been a fucking monarchy. Lloyd George lived through 38 years of her Majesty Victoria, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland Queen, Defender of the Faith, Empress of India's reign. How dare he lecture anyone about the word "republic", especially someone from an island British monarchs have been trying to conquer for centuries? And ironically, Cromwell was the most brutal of the would-be conquerors.

[Hermit]

Of course the word comes from Latin - every European language derives its word for a republic from Latin.

So can we agree that neither the English, nor the Irish nor the Celts had a word for "republic"? If so, cool. Lloyd George was just being a prick.

And he was wrong. The Irish word for republic is "poblacht". A near enough transliteration is "people thing".

I suspect "pobl" probably derives from the Latin too - plebs - (as in "commoner"), but I doubt the English gave that one to the Irish.

[Hermit]

Of course the word comes from Latin - every European language derives its word for a republic from Latin.

So can we agree that neither the English, nor the Irish nor the Celts had a word for "republic"? If so, cool. Lloyd George was just being a prick.

And he was wrong. The Irish word for republic is "poblacht". A near enough transliteration is "people thing". It was coined five years before Lloyd George said they didn't have one.

I suspect "pobl" probably derives from the Latin too - plebs - (as in "commoner"), but I doubt the English gave that one to the Irish.

[laklak]

OK, other than the word "republic", what have the Romans done for us?

[Joe]

Well, if you don't count concrete, plumbing, sewers, postal service, duct-based heating, city grids, republican government, Roman numerals, the Julian calendar, bound books, cesarean section, battlefield surgery, Spanish, Portuguese, French, Italian, Romanian, the Catholic Church, faces on coins, road design, the 12-hour clock, the alphabet, public baths, newspapers, welfare, and a bunch of words...

Nothing much, the wankers!

[rainbow]

And, the theory is that the Americans couldn't let a railway station be built on the line between Berlin and Baghdad because of oil shipments from Iraq (not discovered until the mid-1920s...)?

You are so clever at setting up strawmen.

We're so impressed

[Forty Two]

Of course the word comes from Latin - every European language derives its word for a republic from Latin.

So can we agree that neither the English, nor the Irish nor the Celts had a word for "republic"? If so, cool. Lloyd George was just being a prick.

And he was wrong. The Irish word for republic is "poblacht". A near enough transliteration is "people thing".

I suspect "pobl" probably derives from the Latin too - plebs - (as in "commoner"), but I doubt the English gave that one to the Irish.

They did have words for the concept also embodied by They just didn't use a Latinate word. The old Norse had a word for it. Iceland was the first European Democratic Republic in existence since the heady days of Athenian Democracy. Iceland's form began in the 800s. Is it seriously claimed that there was no word for it?

In Ireland and Scotland, up until the 17th century, they had a system called "tanistry" where their kings/leaders were elected to serve, by representatives and/or noblemen. A form of republicanism (early form). Lloyd George can go fuck himself, since, well, the English abolished tanistry, and replaced it with the English's then favorite form of government, primogenitor based monarchism.

[Hermit]

Well, yeah, there really are not many societies, old or new, big or small, that did not have some sort of more or less elected decision making body. The Germanic societies had governing assemblies called thing/ting/ding from the Roman period right through to medieval times.

The members of very few - if any - of those decision making bodies would have been chosen by what we now consider to be truly democratic means, but then neither were those of Rome even when it was a republic.

Lloyd George was a truly arrogant prick indeed, and hypocritical to boot. The House of Lords was never elected by popular vote, and 26 bishops as well as 92 hereditary peers sit in it ex officio to this day.

[rainbow]

[Forty Two]

Well, now there is a beer I've never seen before. And, not just premium, but ULTRA premium.

[Svartalf]

I know me, I'd try it.

[rainbow]

I know me, I'd try it.

The best beer you can buy in Chennai.
Well paired with a strong curry, for maximum digestive effect.