Prayers before Legislative Bodies

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Hermit
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Re: Prayers before Legislative Bodies

Post by Hermit » Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:01 pm

Svartalf wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:46 pm
...shows poor choices from the writers of the Deutsch Constitution... not even gonna comment passing treaties of this nature with foreign pwoers.
I blame France, Great Britain and the USA.
Das Grundgesetz wurde im Auftrag der drei westlichen Besatzungsmächte vom Parlamentarischen Rat in Bonn erarbeitet, von ihnen genehmigt ... eine Volksabstimmung gab es nicht.
Last edited by Hermit on Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Prayers before Legislative Bodies

Post by NineBerry » Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:07 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:47 pm
It was in the 40's.
Nope.

The Vatican treaty is from 1933.

The text in the constitution is actually from 1919 (It's from the Weimar Constitution). And the right of the churches to collect taxes goes back even further to the beginning of the 19th century. It's basically Napoleon's fault. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsdep ... uptschluss

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Re: Prayers before Legislative Bodies

Post by Alan B » Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:18 pm

Yep. Religion is a useful tool for controlling the masses...
Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power - Eric Hoffer.
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Re: Prayers before Legislative Bodies

Post by Scot Dutchy » Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:21 pm

Napoleon said that.
"Wat is het een gezellig boel hier".

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Re: Prayers before Legislative Bodies

Post by Alan B » Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:25 pm

Er, yes, Scot.
Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power - Eric Hoffer.
I have NO BELIEF in the existence of a God or gods. I do not have to offer proof nor do I have to determine absence of proof because I do not ASSERT that a God does or does not or gods do or do not exist.

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Re: Prayers before Legislative Bodies

Post by Scot Dutchy » Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:27 pm

:smug:
"Wat is het een gezellig boel hier".

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Re: Prayers before Legislative Bodies

Post by Hermit » Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:15 am

Alan B wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:18 pm
Religion is a useful tool for controlling the masses...
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:21 pm
Napoleon said that.
Alan B wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:25 pm
Er, yes, Scot.
Er, no. Though commonly attributed to Napoleon, no credible source of him saying or writing that has been found. Napoleon did say something quite similar in meaning, though:
I do not see in religion the mystery of the incarnation, but the mystery of the social order; religion attaches to heaven an idea of equality that stops the rich from being massacred by the poor.
Statement, March 4, 1806, as reported in Opinions de Napoléon sur divers sujets de politique et d'administration, recueillies par un membre de son conseil d'état (1833), p. 223

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Re: Prayers before Legislative Bodies

Post by JimC » Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:54 am

Which has the same general thrust as Marx's "opiate of the people"...
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Re: Prayers before Legislative Bodies

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:03 am

Mmmm.. opiates... :drool:
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Re: Prayers before Legislative Bodies

Post by Svartalf » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:08 am

When I see how obsessed you are with them, I'm happy I never got addicted to them, even when I took regular doses of tramadol for my broken wrist.
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Re: Prayers before Legislative Bodies

Post by rainbow » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:36 am

Svartalf wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:08 am
When I see how obsessed you are with them, I'm happy I never got addicted to them, even when I took regular doses of tramadol for my broken wrist.
Tramadol is unlikely to lead to addiction, unless it is mixed with other psychoactives. It can be dangerous in recreational doses due to Serotonin Syndrome.
Que?

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Re: Prayers before Legislative Bodies

Post by Svartalf » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:39 am

given I also take head meds, it could have been dangerous then, but I'm gonna look up what Serotonin Syndrome is.
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Re: Prayers before Legislative Bodies

Post by Forty Two » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:12 am

Hermit wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:18 am
Forty Two wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:59 am
I'm sure there is a good, secular rationale for having governments cover the cost of renovating churches, and it's probable that the reason the US constitution forbids such acts has to do with supporting religiosity, somehow.
Care to explain what makes you so sure?
That was sarcastic. I don't believe there are.
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Re: Prayers before Legislative Bodies

Post by Forty Two » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:19 am

NineBerry wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:23 am
It's because there are treaties that go back centuries before there was a separation of church and state. The current understanding is that such treaties are to be kept. There is a conflict between the rule of law requiring the trust of the people that governments will keep their treaties and the idea that amoral treaties cannot be tolerated.

I am very much in favour of just stopping all historic obligations of the German state towards the churches, but constitutional experts say this is unconstitutional because it would violate the churches' right to property if the treaties are broken. Government can only stop these obligations by paying out the churches such a huge amount of money at once that they cannot afford it.
Which treaties are you referring to?

States are generally allowed to withdraw from treaties, and churches are not states, so I'm not sure how they can be parties to treaties.

Entering into a treaty has never been an infinite obligation. It would be odd indeed if centuries-old treaties would be such that they could not be terminated, letting churches hold swords of Damocles over the heads of nations.
NineBerry wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:23 am

Situation is a bit similar to the question of ending slavery. Should former slave owners receive compensation when they lose property of their slaves because slavery is made illegal?
I don't think so. If they make a drug or a type of gun illegal, do they have to pay people who already own them?
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Prayers before Legislative Bodies

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:22 am

Svartalf wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:39 am
given I also take head meds, it could have been dangerous then, but I'm gonna look up what Serotonin Syndrome is.
Too much serotonin in the brain. Makes you crazy euphoric/manic. I had a touch of it when I swapped from one AD to another without tapering off the first one.
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