Prayers before Legislative Bodies

[Forty Two]

Another omission by you. Seems to become a bit of a habit of yours. It's the various churches that make the tithe mandatory - or not - as NineBerry pointed out. The state governments are contracted to serve as conduits. If some other organisation did the job I'm sure you would not object. Your objection is due to your ideological blinders.

I did not omit anything - yes, the churches use the machinery of the State -- the State requires individuals to state their religious affiliation. If that alone was done in the US, it would be an outrage, and a massive breach of the separation of church and state. And, if the State was used to collect taxes to be paid over to religious institutions, that too would be an outrage, and a massive breach of the separation of church and state.

I mean, isn't it? The US is supposed to be nearly a theocracy, according to some, but in Germany, the State is passing around the collection plate.

if you don't pay it, it's an offense and you suffer penalties.

No, you are not penalised other than not being able to avail yourself to church weddings, baptisms and so forth. the consequence of non payment is no different than if payment was to be made directly to the church, but the church member failed to make it.

Not accurate -- https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 80811.html

How is it not a separation of church and state issue where courts are siding with churches that

The Leipzig court rejected the case brought by Hartmut Zapp, a retired canon law professor, dubbed "the church tax rebel", who had insisted on his right to remain a Catholic without having to pay church tax.

The State is enforcing a rule that you can't even remain a Catholic if you don't pay the 8% church tax.

What's your view on school vouchers, where the State allows people to choose to send their kids to a private Catholic school, instead of a public school, and the State will pay for that, rather than the cost for the public school?

This is a serious breach of the separation of church and state. The State is meddling in who pays what to churches.

Not at all. The State decides nothing. The churches decide what, if anything and by what means, its members pay.

"believers who refused to pay an eight per cent church tax could not be considered Catholic and would automatically lose the right to receive Holy Communion and a religious burial." https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 80811.html

A similar arrangement applies to births. The only thing that counts is the birth certificate issued at the same Standesamt, where the existence of newly borns and their names are registered.

That depends on what you view as "counting." Don't pay the church tax, can't baptize your kid in the church. Here in the US, the churches determine who gets baptized there, and the State is not the collection agency for the churches.

So the only difference between the USA and Germany turns out to be that some churches in Germany avail themselves to a collection agency while US churches demand direct payments. I am shocked—shocked—to find that such a difference is going on here!

That is a huge difference. I'm shocked you can't see it. The State is deciding that if you don't pay 8% of your income to the Catholic Church, you can't be Catholic. In the US, a private organization known as a church receives voluntary donations from congregants who voluntarily go or don't go. And, while in Germany, the State is requiring registration of people's private religious beliefs, in the US that matter is wholly outside of any relevance to the State and it would be a violation of the First Amendment for the State to even require disclosure, much less collect taxes and pay them over to churches, and much less set a fucking income tax rate!

The machinery of state as a tool of coercion in favour of religious institutions does not exist. Peer pressure does. Or at least it did when I lived there. What the relatives, neighbours, work colleagues, acquaintances etc said and thought about you was important. Not being a catholic or protestant placed a significant social stigma on you 50 years ago.

Very minor issue then. No big deal if any country wants to set up registration systems where people have to disclose to the state if they have a religious affiliation or not, and then based on that, they pay a church tax, which is collected by the government and paid directly to religious institutions. Good to know.

If you regard the fact that the machinery of state as a tool of coercion in favour of religious institutions does not exist as a very minor issue, I wonder what you might regard as a major, let alone as a very major one.

That was sarcastic - of course it's a major issue. Compared to the issues we have in the US, it's a massive mixing of church and state. It's one of the great things about having an Establishment Clause and a Free Exercise Clause - it keeps the State the hell out of the churches, and keeps the Churches the hell out of the State (other than politicians having their own religious and philosophical beliefs which inform their policy choices, which is true of any nation).

[NineBerry]

Well, if you are Member in a soccer club and don't pay the membership fee, you are thrown out of the club and the courts will side with the club... It's no different

[Forty Two]

Well, if you are Member in a soccer club and don't pay the membership fee, you are thrown out of the club and the courts will side with the club... It's no different

The State doesn't make me register a sport (or as a non-sportsman), and if I register for soccer then tax me to pay for the club. It's very different.

[NineBerry]

The point of that case was not who collects the tax.

[laklak]

Of course it's the point. The government can collect that tax at gunpoint if you refuse to pay it. No church can do that, not here, anyway. If your government is collecting mandatory church "contributions" then you live in a theocracy. It doesn't matter if you can claim "no religion" and get out of it, the point is you have to declare one or the other. It's none of their fucking business. Fuck them and the bureaucratic, theocratic horse they rode in on.

I really do not understand the European mindset, despite living there for years. You tolerate a massive amount of governmental intrusion into your personal life that would have Americans taking up arms. Literally. But then again, you don't have any arms to take up.

[JimC]

It would be better if that German system was thrown out, if only because, if the churches have to organise their own tithes, they'll probably end up with less cash, without the efficiency of a government bureaucracy behind them.

[laklak]

Unless they import Evangelicism. Those idiots give 10% of everything they earn to teh Churkh.

[Forty Two]

The point of that case was not who collects the tax.

The point of the discussion is separation of church and state, not whether a private club kicks you out if you don't pay your dues.

[Scot Dutchy]

Of course it's the point. The government can collect that tax at gunpoint if you refuse to pay it. No church can do that, not here, anyway. If your government is collecting mandatory church "contributions" then you live in a theocracy. It doesn't matter if you can claim "no religion" and get out of it, the point is you have to declare one or the other. It's none of their fucking business. Fuck them and the bureaucratic, theocratic horse they rode in on.

I really do not understand the European mindset, despite living there for years. You tolerate a massive amount of governmental intrusion into your personal life that would have Americans taking up arms. Literally. But then again, you don't have any arms to take up.

We prefer civilisation and not living in the conditions you lot live in. lak your personal circumstances are exceptional and cant be considered normal and it has severely coloured your mindset. Just how does our government intrude into our personal lives? Another American misconception. We dont need arms which is a concept so difficult for Americans to understand that they just dont. We like concepts of social justice not massive inequality where 1% owns 60% of the country's wealth and 5% own 95% of the country's wealth and the bottom 40% own next to nothing. You happy with that? I think you are.
We want stable government not run by madmen. You seem to think Trump is ok which I find incredible. He is a lunatic and needs locked up. Corruption is so rife only certain African countries are worse. It is every where with rich enjoying the greatest profits even at your top educational institutions.
Europe is many countries with many different social systems but the majority have a thing in common; social democracy. A concept so far beyond most Americans they just have not got any idea what it means. It is totally alien. It is what makes us have the happiest people and kids in the world. Where most kids get a decent education and dont live in fear. Once again to return to guns. What a society full of paranoia. How do you live there?
Where people dont have to have at least two jobs to make ends meet. Also it means we dont incarcerate 1% of our populations. In fact we have closed most of our prisons. Another concept like so many are beyond the American mind.

[laklak]

Personal independence and self-reliance are beyond the European mind. It's no wonder, you've been bred and raised as serfs for the last couple of thousand years. Hell, you still have fucking royalty. We bow to no kings. That's why we left in the first place.

[pErvinalia]

Personal independence and self-reliance are beyond the European mind. It's no wonder, you've been bred and raised as serfs for the last couple of thousand years. Hell, you still have fucking royalty. We bow to no kings. That's why we left in the first place.

Yet they are far happier than your lot. Perhaps there's something to this social democracy thing, eh?

[Scot Dutchy]

Personal independence and self-reliance are beyond the European mind. It's no wonder, you've been bred and raised as serfs for the last couple of thousand years. Hell, you still have fucking royalty. We bow to no kings. That's why we left in the first place.

So shooting each other is self reliance. Having high levels of poverty is self reliance. The most backward first world country is self reliance. lak think man. You have Trump and I know what I would prefer. You bow to Koch's and their like.

[NineBerry]

Of course it's the point. The government can collect that tax at gunpoint if you refuse to pay it. No church can do that, not here, anyway. If your government is collecting mandatory church "contributions" then you live in a theocracy.

You go to your local town hall, declare that you are no longer a member of the church (This takes a few minutes and costs a small administration fee) and you don't have to pay the tax any longer.

On the other hand, if you are a member of a soccer club or a non-registered church without automatic church tax, the state can still collect your membership fees at gun point.

It works like this: You owe money to anyone (a company or a private person or a club like a soccer club or a private church). They tell you to pay the outstanding fee. If you don't pay, they go to a court, prove to the court that you owe the money. If the court finds that this is true, its sends a bailiff to you.

If you don't pay to the bailiff, the bailiff has the right to enter your appartment (even with police force), take anything of worth from you to cover the outstanding debt and the court costs. If there is nothing of worth in the appartment, the bailiff can get access to your bank accounts and get money from there directly. The bailiff can also go to your employer and get money from your employer.

If nothing of that helps, there are two choices:

1. Either you sign an oath that you are unable to pay any money. This means that you will be entered into a public registry and no one will then lend you any money any more. You will not be able to take any loans or order any goods on invoice. If you lie about your financial situation or still take loans, you go to prison.

2. You go to prison until you pay the outstanding money + prison costs or choose to do 1.


Is there nothing comparable in the US? If you owe money to someone and refuse to pay, surely, at some point the police will come and make you pay?

It doesn't matter if you can claim "no religion" and get out of it, the point is you have to declare one or the other. It's none of their fucking business. Fuck them and the bureaucratic, theocratic horse they rode in on.

It's really just one question on a form the first time you are registered in the country. And I would like to get rid of it, but it doesn't turn the country into a theocracy.

I really do not understand the European mindset, despite living there for years. You tolerate a massive amount of governmental intrusion into your personal life that would have Americans taking up arms. Literally. But then again, you don't have any arms to take up.

I have seen German reality cop shows and American reality cop shows. I have seen documentaries about German prison and documentaries about American prisons. I prefer the German style.

One can argue that the more bureaucratic regulations actually create freedoms.

For example, the compulsory registration of residence means that there is never a hassle who is allowed to vote and who isn't. The election officials just have to press a button and have a complete list of everyone who is allowed to vote. Another press of a button and every voter is sent an advance notification when and where they are allowed to vote.

The regulations on religious organisations may actually help to tame the religious organizations. There are hardly any people in Germany who argue that the world was created by Jesus 6000 years ago riding on a dinosaur. It is maybe a bit like drug regulation may be more effective in reducing the ill effects of drug use than a war on drugs.

[NineBerry]

The point of that case was not who collects the tax.

The point of the discussion is separation of church and state, not whether a private club kicks you out if you don't pay your dues.

But that is the essence of the court ruling: The church is allowed to throw out members who don't pay church tax (people who declare to the state they are no church members) because it is exactly like membership fees towards a private club. The fact that the tax is collected by the state, doesn't change the right of the church as an organization to throw out members who don't pay.

The court specifically says that it is on the side of the church to decide how they tread people who don't pay church tax. The court explicitly says that the church would be allowed to still provide religious services to such persons. It is the German Catholic church (as opposed to the opinion of the Vatican btw), that they don't want to provide services to people that left the church via the state registration.

[Forty Two]

Of course it's the point. The government can collect that tax at gunpoint if you refuse to pay it. No church can do that, not here, anyway. If your government is collecting mandatory church "contributions" then you live in a theocracy. It doesn't matter if you can claim "no religion" and get out of it, the point is you have to declare one or the other. It's none of their fucking business. Fuck them and the bureaucratic, theocratic horse they rode in on.

I really do not understand the European mindset, despite living there for years. You tolerate a massive amount of governmental intrusion into your personal life that would have Americans taking up arms. Literally. But then again, you don't have any arms to take up.

We prefer civilisation and not living in the conditions you lot live in.

Yeah, it sucks to live in houses five times as big as yours, have multiple vehicles per house, and have far more discretionary income than yours and be rated higher on the Better LIfe Index of the OECD than your country (by far). "The United States performs very well in many measures of well-being relative to most other countries in the Better Life Index. The United States ranks at the top in housing, and income and wealth. They rank above the average in health status, jobs and earnings, education and skills, personal security, subjective well-being, environmental quality, and civic engagement....In the United States, the average household net-adjusted disposable income per capita is USD 44, 049 a year, much higher than the OECD average of USD 30 563 a year, and the highest figure in the OECD... 90% of adults aged 25-64 have completed upper secondary education, much higher than the OECD average of 74%....The level of atmospheric PM2.5 – tiny air pollutant particles small enough to enter and cause damage to the lungs – is 10.1 micrograms per cubic meter, lower than the OECD average of 13.9 micrograms per cubic meter. The United States also does well in terms of water quality, as 84% of people say they are satisfied with the quality of their water, higher than the OECD average of 81%....In general, Americans are more satisfied with their lives than the OECD average. When asked to rate their general satisfaction with life on a scale from 0 to 10, people in the United States gave it a 6.9 grade on average, higher than the OECD average of 6.5. " www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org

Comparatively, the Netherlands has disposable income of $28,000 per capital, which is less than 2/3 that of Americans. Average American lives in a home about 2500 square feet, compared to a puny 1200 in the Netherlands. $2.30 gas here is like $7 there. Simple things we take for granted in the US are seen as luxuries in Europe. Owning pools, having lawn care for a spacious yard/garden, having a maid or housecleaner, dining out at restaurants - far more expensive in Europe. The poor in the US are richer than much of the middle class of Europe - https://mises.org/wire/poor-us-are-rich ... uch-europe

lak your personal circumstances are exceptional and cant be considered normal

You may like to think that, but don't bet on it.

and it has severely coloured your mindset. Just how does our government intrude into our personal lives? Another American misconception. We dont need arms which is a concept so difficult for Americans to understand that they just dont. We like concepts of social justice not massive inequality where 1% owns 60% of the country's wealth and 5% own 95% of the country's wealth and the bottom 40% own next to nothing. You happy with that? I think you are.

Wealth inequality in the Netherlands is on the high side by international standards. While the top 10 percent in the wealth distribution own 61 percent of the total wealth in the Netherlands, the lowest 60 percent hold just 1 percent (aggregated and rounded off) of total wealth. Does that count as the bottom 60% owning next to nothing?

We want stable government not run by madmen. You seem to think Trump is ok which I find incredible. He is a lunatic and needs locked up. Corruption is so rife only certain African countries are worse. It is every where with rich enjoying the greatest profits even at your top educational institutions.

Europe is many countries with many different social systems but the majority have a thing in common; social democracy. A concept so far beyond most Americans they just have not got any idea what it means. It is totally alien. It is what makes us have the happiest people and kids in the world. Where most kids get a decent education and dont live in fear. Once again to return to guns. What a society full of paranoia. How do you live there?

Europe, or a few small western democracies? Let's look at Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece, Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Hungary, Czech Republic, Poland, Russia, Slovenia, Slovakia, etc. Europe is hardly Norway. All the Scandinavian countries combined have about the population of Florida.

And you keep bleating on about this 'paranoia' - that's just projection on your part. People aren't paranoid here. Hardly anyone is carrying guns around. I live in a state with very liberal gun laws - you never see one. Violence is very low.

Where people dont have to have at least two jobs to make ends meet. Also it means we dont incarcerate 1% of our populations. In fact we have closed most of our prisons. Another concept like so many are beyond the American mind.

People don't have to have at least two jobs to make ends meet. Where do you get this horse shit from? Here, about 4% of workers have more than one job, and most of them are part time jobs, not a full time job and another job on top of that.

Got us on the prisons - the US needs to end the war on drugs. Plain and simple. Stop incarcerating non-violent offenders.

But you and this superiority complex of yours -- you have this notion that your "mind" is so much better than others. Where do they grow people like you? Is it taught at school there?