Prayers before Legislative Bodies

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Forty Two
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Re: Prayers before Legislative Bodies

Post by Forty Two » Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:36 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:25 am
Forty Two wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:41 pm
NineBerry wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:36 pm
Soccer clubs should have the same right to try to get money someone owes them as the state. Why not? And why should religions organizations not demand membership fees just as soccer clubs do?
They can do what they want, but if you had churches here in the US asking to have citizens required to register as either Catholic or some other denomination (or non-religious) and then if one picked a denomination, a State mandated 8% tax would be imposed and paid over to the official churches/synagogues, then you'd have a rather fair bit of outrage here that church and state are being mixed.

The ability to "demand" membership fees does not require the taxing authority to collect it for them.
Isn't it just an administrative matter, like tax exemptions on charitable donations? Nobody is being compelled to donate some of their earning to their church any more than they're being compelled to donate to the local dogs home. The tax office is facilitating the donations on behalf of both parties while ensuring that a level playing field applies across the board.
It's a church and state issue just to require people to disclose their religious affiliation. That alone, here in the US, would be extremely controversial, and our atheist and skeptic organizations and humanist organizations would be going batshit over it.

They ARE being compelled - if you register as Catholic, then you must pay the 8% tax, whether you go to church or not. That's much different. The tax office is not merely facilitating donations. If it was, then you could register as Catholic and not donate anything.
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Re: Prayers before Legislative Bodies

Post by rainbow » Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:14 am

NineBerry wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:53 pm
The church taxes are older than 1933. In fact, the nazis worked against it in later years shifting the burden to collect the taxes from the state to the churches themselves. They are a very problematic for several reasons:

1. In some cases, church taxes are levied even for people who are not members of the church, for example for unemployed persons, for spouses of church members or for some forms of pensioners.

2. The church taxes that are paid can be used to reduce the regular tax income. So, the church tax system does reduce the actual tax income of the state.

3. People in certain professions are under high pressure to be members of the church. For example, people in the medical field or in child care have a very strong pressure to be members of the church to keep their job or find a new job. So, they actually don't pay the church taxes voluntarily...


Additionally, there is actual money that goes from the state directly to the churches ("Kirchenleistungen") sometimes directly to the churches, sometimes in the form of salaries for bishops.
Yes but you have some lovely churches, and I'm sure this money goes towards restoration.
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Re: Prayers before Legislative Bodies

Post by NineBerry » Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:30 am

No, in many cases, local governments are responsible to cover the costs of renovating churches. (Kirchenbaulasten).

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Re: Prayers before Legislative Bodies

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:26 am

The churches would love that here.
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Re: Prayers before Legislative Bodies

Post by Forty Two » Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:59 am

NineBerry wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:30 am
No, in many cases, local governments are responsible to cover the costs of renovating churches. (Kirchenbaulasten).
Another thing that is unconstitutional here in the US.

But, I'm sure there is a good, secular rationale for having governments cover the cost of renovating churches, and it's probable that the reason the US constitution forbids such acts has to do with supporting religiosity, somehow.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Prayers before Legislative Bodies

Post by Hermit » Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:18 am

Forty Two wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:59 am
I'm sure there is a good, secular rationale for having governments cover the cost of renovating churches, and it's probable that the reason the US constitution forbids such acts has to do with supporting religiosity, somehow.
Care to explain what makes you so sure?
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Re: Prayers before Legislative Bodies

Post by NineBerry » Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:23 am

It's because there are treaties that go back centuries before there was a separation of church and state. The current understanding is that such treaties are to be kept. There is a conflict between the rule of law requiring the trust of the people that governments will keep their treaties and the idea that amoral treaties cannot be tolerated.

I am very much in favour of just stopping all historic obligations of the German state towards the churches, but constitutional experts say this is unconstitutional because it would violate the churches' right to property if the treaties are broken. Government can only stop these obligations by paying out the churches such a huge amount of money at once that they cannot afford it.

Situation is a bit similar to the question of ending slavery. Should former slave owners receive compensation when they lose property of their slaves because slavery is made illegal?

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Re: Prayers before Legislative Bodies

Post by Svartalf » Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:49 pm

break the treaties would violate churche's right to property? would the state thereby take ownership of church buildings and other religious owned places? I mean, if they churches want to levy a tithe on fidels, it's none of the state's business.
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Re: Prayers before Legislative Bodies

Post by NineBerry » Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:19 pm

Imagine I make a contract with you which says that I pay you 50 EUR each month forever. We both sign the contract. And the contract says it cannot be terminated by either side. Now I simply stop paying you the money. That violates your property rights.

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Re: Prayers before Legislative Bodies

Post by Svartalf » Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:26 pm

mmmh, it's still blatant violation of the separation of church and state, does the Deutscher Staat have any reason to go on collection money on behalf of churches, knowing that they are not doing an equalitarian job since some cults and sects are not party to the agreement and have to do their collecting by their own means?
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Re: Prayers before Legislative Bodies

Post by NineBerry » Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:00 pm

Every religion can apply to also have the state collect taxes for them. Even atheist organizations could register and have taxes collected for them.

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Re: Prayers before Legislative Bodies

Post by Svartalf » Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:12 pm

well, I feel it's high time the state asked the people if they want to do their religious contribution directly or have it taxed automatically, in the first case, they should drop the cult tax policy ASAP.
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Re: Prayers before Legislative Bodies

Post by NineBerry » Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:36 pm

There are two problems:

1. It's in the constitution. You need a 2/3 majority in parliament to change the constitution.
2. There is a treaty with the Vatican which guarantees it. See above: Not so easy to cancel treaties.

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Re: Prayers before Legislative Bodies

Post by Svartalf » Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:46 pm

Well, so changing this state of things is indeed rather difficult... shows poor choices from the writers of the Deutsch Constitution... not even gonna comment passing treaties of this nature with foreign pwoers.
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Re: Prayers before Legislative Bodies

Post by Scot Dutchy » Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:47 pm

It was in the 40's.
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