Yet more problematic stuff

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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:42 pm

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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by JimC » Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:47 pm

They should stop that self-pollination or else they'll go blind... :nono:
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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:49 pm

:hehe:
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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by Animavore » Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:32 pm

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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:34 pm

I couldn't believe it until I scrolled down and saw that she was black.
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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by Sean Hayden » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:28 pm

The cop is also black. (edit: he was also arrested and charged with negligent homicide)

The police are batshit.
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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by Sean Hayden » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:40 pm

Apparently, the car seat wasn't buckled at all, and the straps were loose. I still think it's batshit to charge her. But, I've been saying things like that for years and for everyone regardless of race. I'm tired of the way certain folks would have us treat parents in this country. The bunch of paranoid yobs make me sick.
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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by trdsf » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:01 am

Hermit wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:32 am
That's a truly awful encounter with a badged psycho. Our security personnel was collectively known as 'the grey mice', and they pretty much behaved like them; scuttling around in the recesses of the campus, rarely seen, never heard.

I'm not sure what your anecdote is meant to illustrate, though. That individuals differ from each other, even when compared to each other within any particular cohort? Not exactly news, is it?

I'm thinking more along statistical lines. The expression "very, very likely" is a bit of a hint.

Around about the time of the Ferguson shooting I googled for information about police shootings in the US. Unfortunately I can't find the notes now, but going by my unreliable memory, on a per capita basis black men are 2.4 times more likely to be shot dead by police than white men. Keeping in mind that black men are more likely to be felons than white men, I controlled for that too. Turns out that male black criminals are also about 2.4 times more likely to be shot dead by police than male white criminals.
Well, fundamentally, my point is that there are some people who use a badge — even as low-level a badge as mere campus security for a small Midwestern liberal arts college — to make themselves feel bigger. And to them it doesn't matter whether their target is white, black, brown, yellow, red, or even green (although I'd like to see the green guy). They just need to feel that they can order someone else around.

However, I don't like to think about how much worse my encounter might have been were I black. Would the city police or county deputies have acted differently? I don't know, but I don't think it's out of line to think that they might well have. The city is conservative and white, and the surrounding county is very conservative and very (95.7%) white: while the Orange Disaster Area carried Ohio by a margin of 52.1% to 43.5%, he carried that particular county by 65.1% to 30.2%.

And 'gown vs town' is a real conflict, especially when campus culture and local culture clash.

I don't think back then (1984) I would have been shot, even had I been black. But I also don't think I would've been sent off with a "go on back to your dorm, we'll handle this" either. There probably would have been some warning about not being places I shouldn't be or something like that—as if the library is a place a student shouldn't be.
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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by rainbow » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:21 am

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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by Cunt » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:31 pm

trdsf wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:01 am
Hermit wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:32 am
That's a truly awful encounter with a badged psycho. Our security personnel was collectively known as 'the grey mice', and they pretty much behaved like them; scuttling around in the recesses of the campus, rarely seen, never heard.

I'm not sure what your anecdote is meant to illustrate, though. That individuals differ from each other, even when compared to each other within any particular cohort? Not exactly news, is it?

I'm thinking more along statistical lines. The expression "very, very likely" is a bit of a hint.

Around about the time of the Ferguson shooting I googled for information about police shootings in the US. Unfortunately I can't find the notes now, but going by my unreliable memory, on a per capita basis black men are 2.4 times more likely to be shot dead by police than white men. Keeping in mind that black men are more likely to be felons than white men, I controlled for that too. Turns out that male black criminals are also about 2.4 times more likely to be shot dead by police than male white criminals.
Well, fundamentally, my point is that there are some people who use a badge — even as low-level a badge as mere campus security for a small Midwestern liberal arts college — to make themselves feel bigger. And to them it doesn't matter whether their target is white, black, brown, yellow, red, or even green (although I'd like to see the green guy). They just need to feel that they can order someone else around.

However, I don't like to think about how much worse my encounter might have been were I black. Would the city police or county deputies have acted differently? I don't know, but I don't think it's out of line to think that they might well have. The city is conservative and white, and the surrounding county is very conservative and very (95.7%) white: while the Orange Disaster Area carried Ohio by a margin of 52.1% to 43.5%, he carried that particular county by 65.1% to 30.2%.

And 'gown vs town' is a real conflict, especially when campus culture and local culture clash.

I don't think back then (1984) I would have been shot, even had I been black. But I also don't think I would've been sent off with a "go on back to your dorm, we'll handle this" either. There probably would have been some warning about not being places I shouldn't be or something like that—as if the library is a place a student shouldn't be.
I've been an unlucky sort, when it comes to dealing with cops, or any other authorities.

Regardless of my apparent colour, I've been treated terribly. It is as you say - some seek the badge in order to wield that power.

So why aren't you a cop?

The reason I am not, is that having had a sip of investigative work, fuck that shit. It is a terrible job, with social implications which would cost too much. I would lose most of my family and friendships, if I were a cop.

When I consider how firmly I reject that responsibility, and how firmly it is rejected by most of the 'smart people' I know, it gives me a bit more sympathy for those who ARE willing to do it.

It isn't as simple as people like to think. The cop who wields a gun and bully power is doing it for us taxpayers. If someone is roughed up by a cop, it is the responsibility of the cop, for sure, but it is also the responsibility of those who declined that shit-job and left it to the less capable students to pursue.
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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by Forty Two » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:44 pm

Animavore wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:32 pm
Image
The off-duty cop, Christopher Manuel - African American, not white, was arrested for negligent homicide.

The mother's arrest came because upon investigation it was determined that she had not secured the car seat (at all) into the car. That sounds like it's one of those infant car seats that you put the baby in and then secure the entire car seat into a bracket on the seat. So. In addition to that, it was determined that she had not secured the baby into the car the seat itself.

Translation: the baby was placed loosely into the infant car seat, which was just put in the car, not snapped into place. And, that was found to be a contributing factor in the baby's death. I.e., had the baby been buckled in and the car seat snapped into place, it would not have been killed.

I find the arrest to be overreaching on the part of the State, but who (which party) do you think was the driving force between a criminal law requiring buckling of children into car seats under penalty of jail time?

The biggest problem I see here with the arrest is that the mother wasn't driving the vehicle. I gather from reading articles on it that she was stationary. Not sure how she can be held to be grossly negligent for not driving anywhere, but having a baby in the car not strapped into a seat. That sounds like gross overreaching. Even if she was driving, I think the arrest is a travesty. The fact that her car wasn't moving makes the arrest even worse.

Stupid, overly onerous laws like this are a big problem. But, let me guess which folks here on Ratz would be four-square in favor of laws criminalizing not buckling kids into seats, and which Ratz members wold oppose such a law..... where do you fall on that, Animavore?
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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by Forty Two » Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:09 pm

Cunt wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:31 pm
trdsf wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:01 am
Hermit wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:32 am
That's a truly awful encounter with a badged psycho. Our security personnel was collectively known as 'the grey mice', and they pretty much behaved like them; scuttling around in the recesses of the campus, rarely seen, never heard.

I'm not sure what your anecdote is meant to illustrate, though. That individuals differ from each other, even when compared to each other within any particular cohort? Not exactly news, is it?

I'm thinking more along statistical lines. The expression "very, very likely" is a bit of a hint.

Around about the time of the Ferguson shooting I googled for information about police shootings in the US. Unfortunately I can't find the notes now, but going by my unreliable memory, on a per capita basis black men are 2.4 times more likely to be shot dead by police than white men. Keeping in mind that black men are more likely to be felons than white men, I controlled for that too. Turns out that male black criminals are also about 2.4 times more likely to be shot dead by police than male white criminals.
Well, fundamentally, my point is that there are some people who use a badge — even as low-level a badge as mere campus security for a small Midwestern liberal arts college — to make themselves feel bigger. And to them it doesn't matter whether their target is white, black, brown, yellow, red, or even green (although I'd like to see the green guy). They just need to feel that they can order someone else around.

However, I don't like to think about how much worse my encounter might have been were I black. Would the city police or county deputies have acted differently? I don't know, but I don't think it's out of line to think that they might well have. The city is conservative and white, and the surrounding county is very conservative and very (95.7%) white: while the Orange Disaster Area carried Ohio by a margin of 52.1% to 43.5%, he carried that particular county by 65.1% to 30.2%.

And 'gown vs town' is a real conflict, especially when campus culture and local culture clash.

I don't think back then (1984) I would have been shot, even had I been black. But I also don't think I would've been sent off with a "go on back to your dorm, we'll handle this" either. There probably would have been some warning about not being places I shouldn't be or something like that—as if the library is a place a student shouldn't be.
I've been an unlucky sort, when it comes to dealing with cops, or any other authorities.

Regardless of my apparent colour, I've been treated terribly. It is as you say - some seek the badge in order to wield that power.

So why aren't you a cop?

The reason I am not, is that having had a sip of investigative work, fuck that shit. It is a terrible job, with social implications which would cost too much. I would lose most of my family and friendships, if I were a cop.

When I consider how firmly I reject that responsibility, and how firmly it is rejected by most of the 'smart people' I know, it gives me a bit more sympathy for those who ARE willing to do it.

It isn't as simple as people like to think. The cop who wields a gun and bully power is doing it for us taxpayers. If someone is roughed up by a cop, it is the responsibility of the cop, for sure, but it is also the responsibility of those who declined that shit-job and left it to the less capable students to pursue.
I learned as a teenager to respect cops and that it doesn't pay to try to push for the outer limits of one's "rights."

As a kid in high school, I got away with some stuff -- underage drinking -- cops would take the beer and leave us be. But, then again, it was a very crime-free town, and when cops showed up the kids tended to shut their faces and say "yes, sir" and "no, sir." Nobody caused the cops to sense a risk to themselves.

Where I really got a lesson was one time when I was about 18 or 19, friends and I were driving from one place to another, and some of us were a bit over the limit in terms of sobriety. The driver was probably sober, although I can't recollect how much he had to drink. It was fairly early in the night, though. The cops pulled us over and made us all get out of the car. They were interrogating us, and one of the cops started nosing around in the interior of the vehicle. Then smart-ass me pipes up and asks, "excuse me, officer ,but are you supposed to be looking inside the vehicle?" To which the cop immediately responded with his flashlight stuffed into my gut, and a very intimidating close talk in a serious/stern/loud intonations - "you don't want to get arrested, do you, smart guy?" To which I had the presence of mind to say "no sir, forget I asked." To which he responded, "smart kid. Now sit down on the curb and shut up." To which I had the presence of mind to say "yes, sir." And, I sat.

What would have happened had I pushed it with the cop? I would, and my friends would, have ended up in jail that night on a charge which would not go anywhere - since we hadn't done anything wrong. I would have spent the night, and been let go in the morning, and assigned a court date. I would have had to plea to some sort of ticket, which would be on my record after that. I would have little to no recourse, and nobody would give a fuck.

Since then, when I have been pulled over, I immediately move the vehicle to a safe location. I turn the engine off and the radio off. I put my hands on the wheel and sit there until the copy gets there, and I do not move. Movement inside the car causes concern in a cops mind - what are you looking for? What are you reaching for? Don't move at all. Keep distractions down. when the cop approaches - you say nothing and the cop will ask you a direct question, "license registration and insurance?" and you say "yes sir, I have to get my license from my wallet and my registration and insurance from the glove compartment..." and he will say, o.k. go ahead - and then you reach for it slowly.

You get the papers and hand it to him and shut up. Don't start by denying anything - don't say "what seems to be the problem officer?" Wait to be asked. Then he will ask "do you know why I pulled you over?" And, you say either "no" or "I'm not sure officer." And, then he will tell you - "you were doing x in a yzone --" or "you went through that stop sign back there..." to which you say "I'm sorry officer, I believed I was doing the speed limit, " or "I'm sorry officer, but I believed I stopped at all signals..." He will usually then ask you where you're coming from and/or where you're headed - and you need to just answer that straight out clearly and concisely.

Don't mouth off. Don't be upset. Don't insult the cop. Dun't rush at him. If you're nice, and compliant, you have a chance at leniency. If you act like an ass, you lose that chance.
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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by Cunt » Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:21 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:09 pm
Don't mouth off. Don't be upset. Don't insult the cop. Dun't rush at him. If you're nice, and compliant, you have a chance at leniency. If you act like an ass, you lose that chance.
I've had a lot of criticisms of them over the years. Seth helped me learn different.

Not really directly, but because he had been in law enforcement, and I was forced to think of him as a person occasionally, I gained a lot of sympathy for the position of LEO's.

Thin end of the wedge, since I had some stupid ideas about cops, they started getting sheared away. It's easy to believe crazy shit about 'them', until it becomes apparent that 'they' are actually individuals.

It's easy to hate cops for using violence on people, until I realized that they were doing it upon my orders.

While I myself refuse to take on the responsibility of policing.

The best people I know, the most compassionate, the most thoughtful and caring - those people invariably reject any career in law enforcement.

Then they complain about the quality of person who does take on those duties.
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Seabass wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:33 pm
You are a Republican. You are a conservative, right-wing Republican. You are part of sickness that must be cured for the sake of humanity.
Seabass in the quote above makes me ashamed to be associated with the political left.

The pErnivalia antidote = Just ask him a few direct questions, and he will flee with his trademark
pErvinalia wrote:trolololol..

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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by Forty Two » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:41 pm

Well, there are plenty of bad cops, and plenty of good cops - and sometimes some very good people do some very bad things. However, from the standpoint of good decision-making and what amounts to game-theory, the reality of the system is that there are plenty of times where being right doesn't mean you'll minimize grief and cost to yourself.

It's like these sovereign citizen jackasses - sometimes they actually make a point or a kernel of a point -- but what it gets them is a Pyrrhic victory in court a year from now, after having their car damaged and impounded, time in jail, out of pocket and opportunity costs, and in the end, nobody gives a fuck and it changes nothing.

If I'm walking down the street and a cop out of nowhere says "stop, and let me question you here" I technically have the absolute right to keep walking and ignore the guy - even give him the finger and tell him "fuck off, pig!" -- but, then we get ourselves right into some pretty grey areas real quick - can the cop articulate a reasonable suspicion of criminal activity that would allow him to stop and briefly detain me? That's a pretty low bar "reasonable suspicion" and the cop has qualified immunity from civil suits and it is notoriously difficult to have a cop held responsible through internal regulations, etc. -- so, how hard is it for him to end up with me in hand-cuffs and with a court date? Not hard.

Game theory would suggest that I'm better off suffering the injustice and violation of my liberty in the stop and frisk or stop and detain situation even if the cop does not have reasonable suspicion, rather than be "right" and wind up in jail and fighting a court battle. Even if I win, the best I get is a court order that says the cop shouldn't have stopped me. I'll still probably lose the civil suit because reasonable cops get it wrong some time, and unless it can be proved that the cop was grossly negligent or acting intentionally or recklessly -- his mistake will go unpunished and unremedied.
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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by Animavore » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:20 pm

Concerning problems, and not some cracker complaining he's the new oppressed.

A new study about the environment and public health reveals a stark inequity: White populations in the United States contribute more to air pollution than minority Hispanic and black populations. However, Hispanic and black populations are more likely to be breathing in the air pollution that's created.
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/13/heal ... T7EFEosXxI
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