Yet more problematic stuff

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Sean Hayden
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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by Sean Hayden » Wed May 13, 2020 12:40 am

Seabass wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 12:35 am
:funny:

Imagine if they were white what the narrative would be.
I don't have to imagine, and maybe you should save your laughter given that you do. I mean, how are you going to pretend to be unaware of how awful it is for anyone who has ever opened fire on a cop, save maybe a select few?

Imagine if it were a white guy shooting at the cops! ha-ha-ha, yeah dude, imagine that, it'd be totally cool! lol

Hell, they don't even have to shoot at the cop, if they just get too close to him while fleeing in their vehicle it can become attempted murder...that is how police and prosecutors work and it doesn't matter what color you are at that point.
Last edited by Sean Hayden on Wed May 13, 2020 12:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by Sean Hayden » Wed May 13, 2020 12:42 am

Blacks suffer disproportionately under our legal system and have been hurt more than anyone else by the war on drugs.

However, I hate how Seabass posted that right after an interesting bit on the dangers of uncritically preaching white privilege. It would be normal to assume that whites are to blame, or at least that we can make progress by making whites aware of the problems they cause.
New Study Says White Police Officers Are Not More Likely To Shoot Minority Suspects
When you look at the number of police shootings in relation to the population, you find that people of color are shot and killed more often than white people. The reason for that disparity has been intensely debated for years, especially since an unarmed black teenager was shot and killed in Ferguson, Mo. almost five years ago.

There has been one recurring theory, that white cops are more likely to shoot black people because of racial bias. Now a new study is challenging that conclusion. NPR's Martin Kaste has more.

MARTIN KASTE, BYLINE: Since the Ferguson protests of 2014, we've learned a lot more about fatal shootings by the police. News organizations started collecting their own data on shootings to make up for incomplete federal stats, and academics started building on that. Michigan State University psychologist Joseph Cesario is part of a group that looked at fatal shootings in 2015. They added in the race of the police, and then did a statistical analysis.

JOSEPH CESARIO: The race of a police officer did not predict the race of the citizen shot. In other words, black officers were just as likely to shoot black citizens as white officers were.
An interesting bit occurs shortly after when a critic of the study claims this isn't news to anyone:
GOFF: It doesn't do very much to move us towards an understanding of how much are police responsible for racial disparities. And the things it does sort of lead us to are things that we already knew.

KASTE: For instance, he says if the study is aiming to debunk the assumption that white cops shoot people for racist reasons while black cops don't, he says that's a strawman because no one in his field actually thinks that.
https://www.npr.org/2019/07/26/74573183 ... rity-suspe

But clearly many of us do:

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/08 ... draws-fire

You can bet I thought that way, as will most people reading Seabass.
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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by Seabass » Wed May 13, 2020 1:06 am

Sean Hayden wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 12:40 am
Seabass wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 12:35 am
:funny:

Imagine if they were white what the narrative would be.
I don't have to imagine, and maybe you should save your laughter given that you do. I mean, how are you going to pretend to be unaware of how awful it is for anyone who has ever opened fire on a cop, save maybe a select few?

Imagine if it were a white guy shooting at the cops! ha-ha-ha, yeah dude, imagine that, it'd be totally cool! lol

Hell, they don't even have to shoot at the cop, if they just get too close to him while fleeing in their vehicle it can become attempted murder...that is how police and prosecutors work and it doesn't matter what color you are at that point.
No, if he were white, he'd be dead, but then there would be outrage over government tyranny instead of victim blaming.
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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by Sean Hayden » Wed May 13, 2020 1:10 am

No, it would be invisible like most people in prison for shooting/taking on cops. You don't get the benefits of the outrage machine just because you're white. --jfcoaps

I swear that's just racist, isn't it? :dunno:
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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by Sean Hayden » Wed May 13, 2020 2:36 am

...
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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by Sean Hayden » Wed May 13, 2020 3:38 am

Sorry Seabass, I don't know why I keep jumping on your posts like that. --f'n triggered. :lol:

I think you're wrong, and possibly encouraging racism, but on the issues we are in agreement i.e. the system is disproportionately harmful to minorities. It is just that being white doesn't mean that the system won't chew you up, and as we saw in the study above which looked at poverty, it is very easy for people to get the idea that being white means exactly that.

I'd like people to understand how ugly the system is.
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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by Seabass » Wed May 13, 2020 4:12 am

How am I encouraging racism? Of course the system chews white people up too. I've never said nor implied anything to the contrary. In fact, I have stated in the past that Republicans/conservatives are the problem, and not white people. But there is no getting around the fact that the Republican party is overwhelmingly white, and it is having a really bad reaction to demographic changes.
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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by Sean Hayden » Wed May 13, 2020 4:21 am

Well, I don't know how else to interpret your belief that just being white will mean having the narrative go your way.

That may not be so problematic, except that it looks like it is becoming a majority opinion, and if the above study about damage to empathy is accurate, then at least some concern is warranted.
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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by Seabass » Wed May 13, 2020 7:41 am

:funny: So a white lady opens her salon in defiance of the shutdown order and gets a 7 day jail sentence. Republicans become outraged, Republican Governor lets her out early, and then CHANGES THE LAW so they don't get a repeat. She is then treated like a hero, and Ted Cruz gets his hair cut at her salon to show support.

Just imagine how differently this would probably have played out if she was black. This country is comically racist. It is racist to a degree that is actually hilarious. This could be a Chappelle Show sketch.


Texas governor amends lockdown and orders salon owner freed from jail
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52582945

Ted Cruz gets hair cut at Texas salon whose owner was arrested for reopening business early
https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/08/politics ... index.html
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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by Sean Hayden » Wed May 13, 2020 9:01 am

A judge told this woman he would let her go if she said she was selfish, and they have him asking her to do so on tape.

Republicans want to end shutdowns. Trump has been using protests as rallies. In this context the judge's words were a gift from God.

The real story here is how people are mislead into making heroes out of bullshitters.

It's a common problem. I wonder if it's related to another problem that has irked me for years: the trouble some people have with identifying victims. The bad nurses, many Trump supporters would likely fit the description.
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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by Cunt » Wed May 13, 2020 2:32 pm

There was a recent hashtag trend, supporting a dead guy who got shot while jogging. Because the news kept pumping up the racism angle, I was reluctant to join the trending support groups.

Turns out he most certainly was NOT jogging, and the offense committed was important so crying 'racism' is kind of suggesting the bigger crime was somehow not as important.

I don't know if the 'bigger crime' was the real story either, but it will be sure that lots of people will still insist that racism was the worst thing that could have happened to that guy that day.

It wasn't.
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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by Sean Hayden » Wed May 13, 2020 5:31 pm

I'm not aware of any new details in that story that would justify hunting him down, much less shooting him dead in the street. The video released shows him entering a construction site, having a look around, and then leaving. If he were my son I'd want their heads.
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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by Cunt » Wed May 13, 2020 6:51 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 5:31 pm
I'm not aware of any new details in that story that would justify hunting him down, much less shooting him dead in the street. The video released shows him entering a construction site, having a look around, and then leaving. If he were my son I'd want their heads.
Agreed.

If he was regularly robbing that very site, and was laughing about it while attacking the guy with the shotgun, I't still agree.

My point of disagreement is with focus on racism. There is MUCH more important shit going on here, without clouding up the issue. It's like calling him a jogger. If that turns out to be untrue, it doesn't matter (but lots would scream 'SEE - HE WASN'T JOGGING!!!')

I don't know the race of anyone involved, but even murder isn't as bad as the 'old boys network' that might be the 'gap'.

The trouble with calling it racist is that even if true, it isn't the bad part. Not by a long stretch.
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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by Sean Hayden » Wed May 13, 2020 7:09 pm

Well, at least it's a plausible example of racism this time.

But yeah, his being an ex-cop and the treatment he received is open to many explanations, and not all of them will be racism.
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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by Cunt » Wed May 13, 2020 7:21 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 7:09 pm
Well, at least it's a plausible example of racism this time.

But yeah, his being an ex-cop and the treatment he received is open to many explanations, and not all of them will be racism.
I don't mean there isn't racism, I mean there is MUCH worse going on.

It's like they started a campaign 'all joggers matter' and got a bunch of public attention, then the public found out he wasn't a jogger.

It sort of spoils the reality, which is significant in a way that jogging isn't (in this case)
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