As for Harris: this free will stuff

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Re: As for Harris: this free will stuff

Post by Cunt » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:47 am

I'm not fond of staying on topic, but this made me think of...

A story!

I heard it and it makes me think, so maybe it will do the same for you. (sorry if I mangle this)

A boy was caught stealing, and was punished by a schoolteacher.

Time passes, and the boy later takes tests to get promotion to an officer position. He reflects on the punishment (lesson) from the schoolteacher, but forgets that he was the thief.
Is this the 'same person'

Time passes, and the retiring Officer writes a speech, and completely forgets the schoolteacher, lesson AND the fact of his thievery.
Is THIS the 'same person'

Free will is shit to talk about. I'm lousy at it. I can only go by feeling, and here's the funny thing. I think my best source in this thread is DSRB, and I think the person who I would least like to listen to is DSRB.

Just putting it out there. This is what you get when you have a club where anyone can join.
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placed himself within a swinging arm's distance from said antifas

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Re: As for Harris: this free will stuff

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:55 am

When it comes to personal responsibility, does it matter that the schoolboy who was caught stealing will go on to have life experiences that might change a great many things about him? Surely his actions at the time of the theft, and the consequences thereof, are what's important here? Who might be holding the retiree accountable for the actions of the schoolboy?
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: As for Harris: this free will stuff

Post by Cunt » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:04 am

Brian Peacock wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:55 am
When it comes to personal responsibility, does it matter that the schoolboy who was caught stealing will go on to have life experiences that might change a great many things about him? Surely his actions at the time of the theft, and the consequences thereof, are what's important here? Who might be holding the retiree accountable for the actions of the schoolboy?
Another interesting perspective, but the reason the story was offered (when I read it) was to ask if it was the same man, when he had been physically replaced (cell by cell) AND had lost part, then all of the relevant memory.
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Hermit aka Seraph wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:25 pm
placed himself within a swinging arm's distance from said antifas

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Re: As for Harris: this free will stuff

Post by laklak » Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:27 am

God remembers. He remembers EVERYTHING.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: As for Harris: this free will stuff

Post by JimC » Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:32 am

That's cos he's OCD...
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Re: As for Harris: this free will stuff

Post by Svartalf » Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:52 am

:lol:
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Re: As for Harris: this free will stuff

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:07 am

Cunt wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:04 am
Brian Peacock wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:55 am
When it comes to personal responsibility, does it matter that the schoolboy who was caught stealing will go on to have life experiences that might change a great many things about him? Surely his actions at the time of the theft, and the consequences thereof, are what's important here? Who might be holding the retiree accountable for the actions of the schoolboy?
Another interesting perspective, but the reason the story was offered (when I read it) was to ask if it was the same man, when he had been physically replaced (cell by cell) AND had lost part, then all of the relevant memory.
What do you think?
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Details on how to do that can be found here.

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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

Frank Zappa

"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: As for Harris: this free will stuff

Post by Tyrannical » Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:17 am

I'm not bad, I just live in a pre-deterministic universe where free will is an illusion :{D
A rational skeptic should be able to discuss and debate anything, no matter how much they may personally disagree with that point of view. Discussing a subject is not agreeing with it, but understanding it.

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Re: As for Harris: this free will stuff

Post by Cunt » Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:04 am

Brian Peacock wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:07 am
Cunt wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:04 am
Brian Peacock wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:55 am
When it comes to personal responsibility, does it matter that the schoolboy who was caught stealing will go on to have life experiences that might change a great many things about him? Surely his actions at the time of the theft, and the consequences thereof, are what's important here? Who might be holding the retiree accountable for the actions of the schoolboy?
Another interesting perspective, but the reason the story was offered (when I read it) was to ask if it was the same man, when he had been physically replaced (cell by cell) AND had lost part, then all of the relevant memory.
What do you think?
I think that we base our 'self' on what we remember...what we did, our experiences.

With that being the case, I was disturbed by learning about investigation, and how reliable our memories are.

So the story is a clear example of a moral lesson learned, then partly forgotten, then totally forgotten. Is it the same man?

To me, yes, but only because that's 'how we do it' I don't like how it sits in my mind. I keep going back to pick at it, if you know what I mean.

This ties in to 'free will' for me, because someone else (different stories, different context) shook my idea that our free will can be bent (if not broken) by having our memory taken away.

So no answers, is what I think...
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Hermit aka Seraph wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:25 pm
placed himself within a swinging arm's distance from said antifas

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Re: As for Harris: this free will stuff

Post by DRSB » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:51 am

Rum wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:01 am
I realised what’s been niggling me about this ‘trance’ notion. It’s that DSRB is conflating it with behaviour that some people some of the time do when they are not conscious of it. They are not the same thing at all.
Not the same thing but aspects of the same thing. Behaviour you do when you are unconscious of it falls under what most definitions of trance understand. There is no unified definition but what is agreed is that these are the same neural mechanisms at work. I specialize in conversational hypnosis, hypnosis without trance, because I use it in coaching in context where I don't want to get into discussion about trances but want to get the behavioural change nonetheless. Some say trance is hypnosis others say trance is merely the gateway into hypnosis, others say you don't need trances to go into hypnosis and what I can assure you is you definitely don't need this relaxed cataleptic state people associate with the mainstream idea of hypnosis. Some people expect it so much that if they have not been so deeply relaxed, it has not worked, but it is absolutely unnecessary for the effect.
My aim is to be as conversational as possible and still get into the unconscious patterns. It is all about redirecting the focus of attention
You can be in trance and be conscious of it and you can be in trance and not be conscious of it and you can be conscious and aware at the same time or you can be conscious of something but unaware of it or you can be unconscious but aware (like you will immediately wake up if there is danger) or you can be unconscious and unaware yet it is there and working. This must not become a war of definitions what is consciousness and what is awareness and who is to say.

One of my role models explains some this here:

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Re: As for Harris: this free will stuff

Post by DRSB » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:47 am

I have expressed my misgivings about Freud but he was influential.
Here is a film worth watching:

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Re: As for Harris: this free will stuff

Post by PsychoSerenity » Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:43 am

Brian Peacock wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:55 am
When it comes to personal responsibility, does it matter that the schoolboy who was caught stealing will go on to have life experiences that might change a great many things about him? Surely his actions at the time of the theft, and the consequences thereof, are what's important here? Who might be holding the retiree accountable for the actions of the schoolboy?
Remind me to reply to this sometime when I'm not busy procrastinating at gone midnight. I think it's fascinating but it'll take me ages to get my thoughts coherent and written down.
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]

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Re: As for Harris: this free will stuff

Post by Brian Peacock » Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:53 am

Hey PS, don't forget to reply to that post. :D
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

Frank Zappa

"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
.

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Re: As for Harris: this free will stuff

Post by Hermit » Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:37 am

PsychoSerenity wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:43 am
Remind me to reply to this sometime...
Will do, but you need to remind me to remind you. ;)

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Re: As for Harris: this free will stuff

Post by JimC » Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:09 am

Hermit wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:37 am
PsychoSerenity wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:43 am
Remind me to reply to this sometime...
Will do, but you need to remind me to remind you. ;)
That's cos you don't have free will... :tea:
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