The how does that work (you can't explain that) thread - Ask here.

[Rum]

If i put coffee in a coffee maker and it makes 4 cups (american cups), and I grab the first two cups from the drip maker, is my first 2 cups stronger coffee than the remaining 2 cups? Assume amount of caffeine is the "stronger" measurement, not the tannins.

If one assumes that soaking the ground coffee gets it to release its flavour and also that the dripping at the end, when most of the water has gone through actually contains more flavour, then the last two, however of course Dutch coffee is the best in the world so why bother?

[Tero]

We’ll just call it free market capitalist coffee if you get it uneven. If you wait till the end and pour two people the same coffee, that is socialist coffee!!

[Rum]

Or we could all have a nice cup of socially just tea.

[Scot Dutchy]

If i put coffee in a coffee maker and it makes 4 cups (american cups), and I grab the first two cups from the drip maker, is my first 2 cups stronger coffee than the remaining 2 cups? Assume amount of caffeine is the "stronger" measurement, not the tannins.

If one assumes that soaking the ground coffee gets it to release its flavour and also that the dripping at the end, when most of the water has gone through actually contains more flavour, then the last two, however of course Dutch coffee is the best in the world so why bother?

Coffee does not brew like tea. The strongest is at the beginning which is why espresso is served in small cups.

[JimC]

Re consciousness of humans and animals - it's all in the definition. Many animals have excellent awareness of their situation, and can engage in clever problem-solving relating to their immediate physical surroundings. That can involve quite complex cognition, at times.

However, to me, human-level consciousness is in another realm altogether. It is extremely recursive, rich in symbols, and anchored in a complex (if illusory) sense of self, constantly compared to the assumed selves of other humans. We are so used to thinking of other humans as active agents in the same way we feel ourselves to be that we have a strong tendency to apply the same process to our animal companions, whose mental activities, however clever, will never have the possibility of inward reflection and analysis.

[laklak]

Dali Llama disagrees.

[Rum]

Re consciousness of humans and animals - it's all in the definition. Many animals have excellent awareness of their situation, and can engage in clever problem-solving relating to their immediate physical surroundings. That can involve quite complex cognition, at times.

However, to me, human-level consciousness is in another realm altogether. It is extremely recursive, rich in symbols, and anchored in a complex (if illusory) sense of self, constantly compared to the assumed selves of other humans. We are so used to thinking of other humans as active agents in the same way we feel ourselves to be that we have a strong tendency to apply the same process to our animal companions, whose mental activities, however clever, will never have the possibility of inward reflection and analysis.

Well put and lucid. I think what is missing though is the self awareness element. By ‘conscious’ I think most of us mean we are aware...that we ‘are’ and that we apprehend the world around us (however illusory, as you say) in a state of self awareness. I think it is difficult to know how animals, which is where this started, fit. They aren’t blank unconscious lumps of flesh (thinking dogs here), nor, clearly are they as complex as us in the brain department. If they are somewhere in between it is hard to imagine how it looks to them.

That is of course unless something truly dramatic and different suddenly happened to humans at some point, which I somehow doubt.

[JimC]

Re consciousness of humans and animals - it's all in the definition. Many animals have excellent awareness of their situation, and can engage in clever problem-solving relating to their immediate physical surroundings. That can involve quite complex cognition, at times.

However, to me, human-level consciousness is in another realm altogether. It is extremely recursive, rich in symbols, and anchored in a complex (if illusory) sense of self, constantly compared to the assumed selves of other humans. We are so used to thinking of other humans as active agents in the same way we feel ourselves to be that we have a strong tendency to apply the same process to our animal companions, whose mental activities, however clever, will never have the possibility of inward reflection and analysis.

Well put and lucid. I think what is missing though is the self awareness element. By ‘conscious’ I think most of us mean we are aware...that we ‘are’ and that we apprehend the world around us (however illusory, as you say) in a state of self awareness. I think it is difficult to know how animals, which is where this started, fit. They aren’t blank unconscious lumps of flesh (thinking dogs here), nor, clearly are they as complex as us in the brain department. If they are somewhere in between it is hard to imagine how it looks to them.

That is of course unless something truly dramatic and different suddenly happened to humans at some point, which I somehow doubt.

I recommend reading Daniel Dennett's "From bacteria to Bach and back" for an interesting perspective on this whole issue - the reality of evolution is his starting point, unlike some other philosophers...

[Rum]

Read a couple of reviews and downloaded it. Cheers!

[laklak]

Dogs definitely plan things. Moo used to distract me so Boo could go scarf up whatever food wasn't under lock and key. He liked 'is tucker, did our Boo.

[pErvinalia]

Does Jupiter's red spot move around? Why do storms last so long on Jupiter?

[trdsf]

Does Jupiter's red spot move around? Why do storms last so long on Jupiter?

First question: not latitudinally, but it does longitudinally -- of course, that depends on how you define 'move around' because there's no surface from which to define a fixed point to measure movement against. One could perfectly reasonably define the center of the Red Spot as longitude zero, just because it's probably the most easily defined "point" on the visible cloudtop "surface" of Jupiter. Then all other features would be measured against that, and in that sense, the Red Spot wouldn't 'move'.

Second question: that's an area of active research, and no one knows yet.

[pErvinalia]

[laklak]

Because He's King of the Gods, and He can do whatever the fuck He wants.

[pErvinalia]

How can dogs not have consciousness? My ex's dog sees my ex put food in her bowl. She's inside near the glass sliding door. The screen door is shut. She gets up and seeing the door is shut, immediately walks around the corner and goes out the open front door. She knows from experience that she can get out via either of the two doors. This implies memory recall and therefore internal representation of past events. How does a purely physical process in the absence of mental representation allow a dog to make choices like that?

Who says they don’t? I strongly suspect those who would like to assume animals generally aren’t conscious are those who are happy to accept the industrialised cruelty we impose on many species. I’m pretty damn sure my two are ‘aware’. (Well, one, not so much...)

Of course dog's have consciousness - and a self-aware consciousness t'boot. Ever watched a bitch with her pups?

Bitch please...