Even more problematic stuff

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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Cunt » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:52 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:57 pm
You can now consider yourself fully informed. :D

If you're interested enough to respond to this post without falling to a non-sequitor then I'm sure we can have an interesting discussion, one that doesn't just focus on the behaviour of objectors but on the aims and ideals of the people they're objecting to. This is, after all, fundamental to the entire matter.
No need, we don't disagree on much. You are ignoring my point, in favour of assuming you know what I'm on about.

People objecting to a KKK assembly isn't a problem for me. Putting masks on and attacking the members physically IS.

I don't like the KKK, nor do I identify with them.

Maybe you should simply tell me when you think it is cool to mask up and assault people.

If it isn't, then we agree, and I don't know why you are rattling on about me being a supporter of fascism. Free speech is for everyone, not just those you agree with.

In fact, if you had ever gotten the point made by Mills, you would know that the only speech that needs protecting is unpopular speech.

One hilarious transparent tactic is for shallow-thinking assholes to create hate speech laws, then label contraversial ideas as hate speech, so that they can mask up and attack.

Have you seen what has been happening to those trying to exercise their free speech? Fire alarms being pulled, financial possibilities removed wherever possible.

Maybe this is a better question. Should a fascist living in your neighbourhood have access to water, roads, etc.? Or should they be denied all those public services because fascism is wrongspeak?

I think one of the real problems is that someone decided that speech was literal violence, so idiots can now respond to that speech with violence, and claim they are defenders.

Instead of the thugs they are.
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Seabass wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:33 pm
You are a Republican. You are a conservative, right-wing Republican. You are part of sickness that must be cured for the sake of humanity.
Seabass in the quote above makes me ashamed to be associated with the political left.

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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:30 pm

The first step to resisting fascism is to object to its existence. Fascism, being a form of authoritarianism, is ideologically resistant to reason - it is by nature an unreasonable credo - so while society might object to and resist fascism, fascism itself resists and objects to society. Indeed, it has to in order to remake the world in its own image. Those who would invoke the rights and protections afforded to all citizens in society to further their aim of undermining those very rights and protections must be deterred for the common good, and if the government cannot supply a sufficient deterrent in the common interest and for the common good then the citizenry must do whatever it can on its own behalf.
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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Cunt » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:43 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:30 pm
The first step to resisting fascism is to object to its existence. Fascism, being a form of authoritarianism, is ideologically resistant to reason - it is by nature an unreasonable credo - so while society might object to and resist fascism, fascism itself resists and objects to society. Indeed, it has to in order to remake the world in its own image. Those who would invoke the rights and protections afforded to all citizens in society to further their aim of undermining those very rights and protections must be deterred for the common good, and if the government cannot supply a sufficient deterrent in the common interest and for the common good then the citizenry must do whatever it can on its own behalf.
Yeah. That's why I value freedom of speech or freedom of expression over some guidelines dictated by a (possibly fascist) government.

If you value speech only when it is comfortable, I understand. To me, though, it is more important than my own comfort, so I allow for uncomfortable discussions.
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Seabass wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:33 pm
You are a Republican. You are a conservative, right-wing Republican. You are part of sickness that must be cured for the sake of humanity.
Seabass in the quote above makes me ashamed to be associated with the political left.

The pErnivalia antidote = Just ask him a few direct questions, and he will flee with his trademark
pErvinalia wrote:trolololol..

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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Forty Two » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:49 pm

Whatever it can short of the use of force. If the person speaking about fascism isn't using force, there is zero justification for using any force against him or her.

"Those who would invoke the rights and protection afford all citizen in society to further their aim of undermining those rights and protections must be deterred for the common good," - yes, indeed, and those who would undermine the rights of freedom of speech, religion, and the press, the right to keep and bear arms, the right not to be a witness against oneself, the right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures, the right to be free of more than one prosecution for the same crime -- you know - when someone uses the freedom of our society to say, undermine the rights and protections afforded to people who keep and bear arms, well.... "we" have to do "whatever is necessary" -- force if necessary - to stop them. Yes? If not, why not?

And, when some faction decides that they will undermine the freedom of speech -- well, "we" must do whatever is necessary and have the right to do whatever is necessary - to stop them, including force if necessary. Yes? If not, why not?

If a communist or socialist group seeks to use the freedoms of our society to undermine our rights to property and liberty, "we" have the right to do whatever is necessary to stop them, including force if necessary. Yes? If not, why not?

Point being - your post sounds great -- until you realize that there are significant differences of view as to what are the "rights and protections afforded all citizens" that fundamentally the theory fails. In fact, a group that would use force against another group merely to stop them from expressing their view (repugnant as it is) is, in fact, attempting to undermine a right and protection afforded to all citizens.... are they not?
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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Cunt » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:52 pm

George Carlin is quoted as saying that political correctness is fascism masquerading as manners.

It's why I value the politically incorrect as much as I do. At least I know they aren't speaking that way to keep the fainting couches from being used.
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Seabass wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:33 pm
You are a Republican. You are a conservative, right-wing Republican. You are part of sickness that must be cured for the sake of humanity.
Seabass in the quote above makes me ashamed to be associated with the political left.

The pErnivalia antidote = Just ask him a few direct questions, and he will flee with his trademark
pErvinalia wrote:trolololol..

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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Seabass » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:54 am

Your boy's in trouble, Coity. Couldn't happen to a nicer MAGA dummy.

Families of Sandy Hook shooting victims win legal victory in lawsuit against InfoWars, Alex Jones
https://abcnews.go.com/US/families-sand ... d=60314174
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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Animavore » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:03 am

42 posting a link to InfoWars to back a claim is what done it for me with him after giving far more grace than other Trump cultists. I remember pretty much going for that ignore button like Mr. Burns going for the button that releases the trapdoor.

Good to see someone being held somewhat accountable for the lies and hysteria the right have been spreading, but as long as the main culprit eludes justice the system still remains a mockery.
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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Hermit » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:03 am

Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:57 pm
Considering the amount of time we've been discussing this and related issues I would hope that you're quite receptive to something that is considered a definite exposition on the nature of fascism. It's definitely worth putting an hour of you time aside to read Umberto Eco's 1995 essay for The New York Review of Books, Ur-Fascism. I encourage you to give it a go at least.
That link only provides the opening paragraphs to non-subscribers. The full text is available here. It's only nine pages long. Eco's list of 14 typical features of ur- or eternal fascism starts at the bottom of page six.

For those who prefer to listen to, rather than read it, can do so here.

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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:16 am

There you go Cunt. Hermit's done most of your research for you - you can even listen to it while out for a jog. :tup:
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Hermit » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:47 am

Forty Two wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:49 pm
If the person speaking about fascism isn't using force, there is zero justification for using any force against him or her.
Your theory fails because fascism has exploited freedom of speech in the past, then suppressed it. And then resistance was futile.

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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Hermit » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:49 am

Cunt wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:52 pm
George Carlin is quoted as saying that political correctness is fascism masquerading as manners.
George Carlin was a stand-up comedian. He was no good as a political or social analyst.

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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Forty Two » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:57 pm

Hermit wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:47 am
Forty Two wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:49 pm
If the person speaking about fascism isn't using force, there is zero justification for using any force against him or her.
Your theory fails because fascism has exploited freedom of speech in the past, then suppressed it. And then resistance was futile.
Actually, that isn't how fascism took hold anywhere. Too much freedom of speech never resulted in fascism.
But if fascists are to lose their free speech rights, someone must take them. And if you believe, as many of the counter-protesters do, that the white nationalists and their brethren were emboldened by the presence of a man in the White House who sees them as part of his coalition, then why on God's good green earth would you want to turn around and hand that very man the right to censor anyone whom he labels fascists? Because I can tell you right now, the list of folks that Trump and the restive-but-still-Republican Congress would like to silence sure won't look like the list those sign-wavers have in mind.

The people wielding "No Free Speech for Fascists" placards might as well be holding up signs saying "No Free Speech for Muslims." And in fact, many on the right have been making just that argument against the ACLU for years now, arguing that exceptions to our free speech principles should be made to curtail extreme speech by Muslim religious figures or activists in the name of security, or even (in the stupidest variant of the idea) that the ACLU is part of a radical Islamic conspiracy. But if the justification for restrictions on the speech of one man is violence committed by another, there can be no end to list of people who may be silenced in the name of order.
https://reason.com/blog/2017/08/14/no-f ... -a-bad-dan
One of the defining attributes of fascism is forcible suppression of views (“For Ur-Fascism, disagreement is treason,” wrote Umberto Eco); recall that one of Trump’s first proposals after winning the 2016 election was to criminalize flag desecration. You can’t fight that ideology by employing and championing one of its defining traits: viewpoint-based state censorship.
https://theintercept.com/2017/08/13/the ... ttesville/
Beyond that, the contradiction embedded in this anti-free speech advocacy is so glaring. For many of those attacking the ACLU here, it is a staple of their worldview that the U.S. is a racist and fascist country and that those who control the government are right-wing authoritarians. There is substantial validity to that view.

Why, then, would people who believe that simultaneously want to vest in these same fascism-supporting authorities the power to ban and outlaw ideas they dislike? Why would you possibly think that the List of Prohibited Ideas will end up including the views you hate rather than the views you support? Most levers of state power are now controlled by the Republican Party, while many Democrats have also advocated the criminalization of left-wing views. Why would you trust those officials to suppress free speech in ways that you find just and noble, rather than oppressive?
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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Svartalf » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:42 pm

Hermit wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:49 am
Cunt wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:52 pm
George Carlin is quoted as saying that political correctness is fascism masquerading as manners.
George Carlin was a stand-up comedian. He was no good as a political or social analyst.
I still notice that PC IS a major restriction to freedom of speech... so Carlin might not have been so very far from the truth
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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Cunt » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:39 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:16 am
There you go Cunt. Hermit's done most of your research for you - you can even listen to it while out for a jog. :tup:
What is it you think I need to know?

That everyone labels Trumps Republicans as fascist?

Or that using violence to supress speech is fascist?
Svartalf wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:42 pm
Hermit wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:49 am
Cunt wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:52 pm
George Carlin is quoted as saying that political correctness is fascism masquerading as manners.
George Carlin was a stand-up comedian. He was no good as a political or social analyst.
I still notice that PC IS a major restriction to freedom of speech... so Carlin might not have been so very far from the truth
He was blunt, but significant. Others can dismiss him easily by claiming he was a jester, but they can't do it based on his claim.
Shit, Piss, Cock, Cunt, Motherfucker, Cocksucker and Tits.
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Seabass wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:33 pm
You are a Republican. You are a conservative, right-wing Republican. You are part of sickness that must be cured for the sake of humanity.
Seabass in the quote above makes me ashamed to be associated with the political left.

The pErnivalia antidote = Just ask him a few direct questions, and he will flee with his trademark
pErvinalia wrote:trolololol..

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Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Hermit » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:40 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:57 pm
Hermit wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:47 am
Forty Two wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:49 pm
If the person speaking about fascism isn't using force, there is zero justification for using any force against him or her.
Your theory fails because fascism has exploited freedom of speech in the past, then suppressed it. And then resistance was futile.
Actually, that isn't how fascism took hold anywhere. Too much freedom of speech never resulted in fascism.
Yes it did. After the miserable failure of the Beer Hall Putsch in 1923 Hitler decided to attain power by other means. The NSDAP won control of the parliament of the Weimar Republic through elections. Hitler became Chancellor in January 1933 within the existing constitutional framework. Two months later he manipulated parliament to grant him the ability to govern without parliament via the emergency law, and only then was the end of freedom of speech abolished. In the next elections, held in November 1933, the NSDAP won 661 out of 661 seats. Gleichschaltung followed in 1935. The party flag officially became the German flag, Germany's Jews were stripped of their citizenship and the 1000 year reign of the third German empire commenced.

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