Psuedoscience and educational institutions

[Jason]

If you don't understand something I said, because of an apparent conflict, how about asking?

I mean, you could just assume I'm wrong, but isn't it just barely possible that I'm expressing something I feel two ways about?

OK, then explain how this:

Let me try from a different direction...I think the friends and family members I have who work in social work are doing important work, and trying their level best to treat people very well.

Meshes with this:

My friends are in the process of adopting some children from an indigenous community nearby. When they told me that they would be dealing with social workers, I told them to close ranks, treat them like enemies, and indeed, have called them the 'SS'. Those folks disagreed with me.

To produce this:

I think that all of them are very vulnerable to treating people horribly.

What happened at Huronia is an example of social work being done as best people can, without proper oversight. Institutional abuse is WAY worse than the individual kind.

You call them "SS" (an implicit reference to the Waffen-SS), exhort your friends to treat them as the enemy, and then follow on with your opinion that they're doing "important work" and "trying their level best."

Maybe I don't understand English as you know it, but to me that seems outright contradictory.

[Cunt]

Because it IS outright contradictory.

Try it this way...some of the horrors decsribed as taking place at Huronia included sterilization of women, against their will.

It's fucking horrible. I saw an old woman weep for having lost her chance. It fucking SCARRED me, honestly.

Now, instead of thinking of her, and empathizing with her (as I hope you can) could you please empathize with the 'professional caregivers' who made that decision?

Can you not see how their aims, right and good, ended up achieving horrors?

I say that they need supervision. Terribly invasive supervision, with suspicion and distrust of humans at every step. I don't say this because I think they are terrible people, I say this because loving people will implement terrible decisions without that supervision.

[Jason]

OK, no I will not 'empathize' with the 'professional caregivers' who sterilized (and did things worse to) these people. It's bastardy of the highest level - if I weren't such a temperate man I'd advocate the same being done to them and their offspring. I have no sympathies for people who carry out programs of abuse against the mentally disabled. Fuck them and their families forever.

[Cunt]

OK, no I will not 'empathize' with the 'professional caregivers' who sterilized (and did things worse to) these people. It's bastardy of the highest level - if I weren't such a temperate man I'd advocate the same being done to them and their offspring. I have no sympathies for people who carry out programs of abuse against the mentally disabled. Fuck them and their families forever.

A proud position, filled with noble tones.

How long did you work in these institutions?

If you never have, how much time have you spent in them, playing checkers and watching your neighbours to make sure they were doing well?

The institutions needed to be there. The 'professional caregivers' are still there, in institutions, doing their 'bastardy of the highest level'. Why not get involved?

I ask because it's a pretty safe bet that you haven't done a fucking thing about it. I have been on both sides of this. Worked with People First of Canada (an organization dedicated to closing institutions) and worked in institutions. Spoken with administrators of institutions. Both groups are people doing their best to treat people well. Do you honestly think one of the groups is doing harm on purpose?

[Jason]

They certainly did not 'need to be there,' those that worked there did not 'need to be there,' and they definitely do not need to be 'still there.'

As for involvement, I am involved.

[Jason]

Honestly, I'm beginning to doubt your sanity Cunt.

[pErvinalia]

You've only just realised this..?

[Svartalf]

Well, at least he's only a suspicion, I know a poster or two here who may be certifiably insane...

[rainbow]

Well, at least he's only a suspicion, I know a poster or two here who may be certifiably insane...

Besides me?

That would be too much of a coincidence.

[Svartalf]

There's no coincidence... I did not even think of you, you're not insane, you use an alternate form of logic.

[Cunt]

They certainly did not 'need to be there,' those that worked there did not 'need to be there,' and they definitely do not need to be 'still there.'

As for involvement, I am involved.

Do you really think there is no need for institutions?

I prefer a community support model wherever it can work, but honestly don't know how it could be achieved.

Prisons, residential schools, old folks homes. All of these institutions are necessary, and each can be horrible.

Close supervision and oversight is the only hope of intervening on these matters in a timely fashion.

I understand you think institutions don't 'need to' still be used, but they ARE. Enough people disagree with you that it is still going on. Hay River just recently built an institution, AFTER Huronia was closed and apologized for. Your area (BC? will surely have institutions. If they aren't watched, they will turn horrible.

I'm not satisfied that we will always need institutions, but for now, they are a reality. Would you rather have them monitored? Or do as we did with Huronia, and let them provide care shielded from public scrutiny?

[Rum]

There are pretty tough inspection regimes here for homes for old people, children's homes and the like. Places get shut down now and again too.

Lessons learned from a long history of institutions harboring abusers of one sort or another.

[Cunt]

There are pretty tough inspection regimes here for homes for old people, children's homes and the like. Places get shut down now and again too.

Lessons learned from a long history of institutions harboring abusers of one sort or another.

I would say those abuses happen a HELL of a lot less when families, communities are there backing up those inspections.

Nothing like a little sunlight to disinfect.

I wish we didn't need institutions at all - really I do. I just don't see how.