What would your government do

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Re: What would your government do

Post by Hermit » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:45 pm

Joe wrote:As for Seth, I doubt he'd be manning the barricades, his ridiculous bluster not withstanding.
He'd be there as a reporter, covering the event for The Daily Caller. Decked out in full Kevlar Level IIIA, Kevlar helmet, shin guards, steel-toed combat boots, HD video mounted to the body armor, remote shotgun mic for the video on one shoulder like a parrot, battery powered video light on the other all attached to the MOLLE loops with remote controls. Nikon digital camera, digital sound recorder, gas mask, cup, the whole shebang, he'll call it "urban combat journalism at its finest". He'll be the hit of the press pool, everybody will be so jealous.

Lest I be accused of plagiarism let me credit the above description to an actually existing person's Facebook post (which I modified minimally going by the name of Scott Weiser. I think it fits Seth down to a T.
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Re: What would your government do

Post by Joe » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:54 pm

Hermit wrote:
Joe wrote:As for Seth, I doubt he'd be manning the barricades, his ridiculous bluster not withstanding.
He'd be there as a reporter, covering the event for The Daily Caller. Decked out in full Kevlar Level IIIA, Kevlar helmet, shin guards, steel-toed combat boots, HD video mounted to the body armor, remote shotgun mic for the video on one shoulder like a parrot, battery powered video light on the other all attached to the MOLLE loops with remote controls. Nikon digital camera, digital sound recorder, gas mask, cup, the whole shebang, he'll call it "urban combat journalism at its finest". He'll be the hit of the press pool, everybody will be so jealous.

Lest I be accused of plagiarism let me credit the above description to an actually existing person's Facebook post (which I modified minimally going by the name of Scott Weiser. I think it fits Seth down to a T.
And this, in an obviously brand new jacket!
Ain't my first rodeo, pard.
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Re: What would your government do

Post by laklak » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:11 am

What would he Feds do? Y'all know exactly what they'd do, because they've done it before. Gettysburg, Manassas, Bull Run, Atlanta, Waco, Ruby Ridge, Wounded Knee....

Step out of line the man come and take you away.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: What would your government do

Post by Sean Hayden » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:33 am

Hermit wrote:
Joe wrote:As for Seth, I doubt he'd be manning the barricades, his ridiculous bluster not withstanding.
He'd be there as a reporter, covering the event for The Daily Caller. Decked out in full Kevlar Level IIIA, Kevlar helmet, shin guards, steel-toed combat boots, HD video mounted to the body armor, remote shotgun mic for the video on one shoulder like a parrot, battery powered video light on the other all attached to the MOLLE loops with remote controls. Nikon digital camera, digital sound recorder, gas mask, cup, the whole shebang, he'll call it "urban combat journalism at its finest". He'll be the hit of the press pool, everybody will be so jealous.

Lest I be accused of plagiarism let me credit the above description to an actually existing person's Facebook post (which I modified minimally going by the name of Scott Weiser. I think it fits Seth down to a T.
That's really good. :biggrin:

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Re: What would your government do

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:16 am

Isn't there some law against the military being used on US soil against US citizens? Or can that be side-stepped in a declared state of emergency?
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Re: What would your government do

Post by Joe » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:34 am

pErvinalia wrote:Isn't there some law against the military being used on US soil against US citizens? Or can that be side-stepped in a declared state of emergency?
There's a law called the Posse Comitatus Act that restricts using the military to enforce domestic law, but insurrections are an exception.
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Re: What would your government do

Post by Sean Hayden » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:35 am

Joe wrote:
pErvinalia wrote:
JimC wrote:
Sean Hayden wrote:Sure, but we only have to imagine the possibility of a real threat to our governments in order to speculate about what they may do to ensure their survival.
They key, if you want to stick to your comparison with Syria, is to consider whether there are ethical differences between a democratic government resisting an internal challenge by an armed and foreign supported minority vs a dictatorship facing something similar.

To me, you seem to be implying that any government will use whatever military force it can muster to defeat an internal rebellion. That may be true, but it doesn't answer the ethical conundrum I posed above.
The thing is, while we couldn't imagine this sort of thing happening in Australia, it's fairly easy to imagine it happening in the US (although, I doubt they'd get any foreign help, unless perhaps was nefarious means) with their libertarian streak and 2nd amendment.

This is actually a debate I used to have with Seth a lot. He used to bleat on about overthrowing a tyrannous government if the constitution was legally amended to repeal the 2nd amendment or alter it significantly. He views it as tyranny, and he would consider himself a freedom fighter, but it's by definition not unconstitutional. He claimed that it would be unconstitutional, and I offered the scenario where the judiciary decided that it actually was constitutional; how would he react? Well he'd consider it tyrannical anyway and that the judiciary was being equally tyrannical. It's a circular argument, but that's how some of these nutters think. So I guess this highlights that not all "freedom fighters" are necessarily freedom fighters. They might just be ideological nut cases.
An insurrection in the mainland US would face serious obstacles, given the number of military bases spread across the country, and the fact that our military has been conducting counterinsurgency operations for decades. A couple of academics actually came up with a scenario a while back:
How it could go down

An extreme right-wing militia takes over the town of Darlington, South Carolina, placing the mayor under house arrest and disbanding the city council. Local police are disarmed or are sympathetic to the militia's cause and integrated into the militia.

The rebels choke traffic on interstates 95 and 20, collecting "tolls" to fund their arsenal and operation. Militiamen also stop rail lines and detain anyone who protests their actions.

The insurgents use social media and press conferences to invoke the Declaration of Independence as their rationale, arguing they have the right to "alter or abolish the existing government and replace it with another that, in the words of the Declaration, 'shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.'"

Because of this, they enjoy a "groundswell" of support from similarly-minded locals throughout the state. The mayor contacts the governor and his congressman. The governor doesn't call out the National Guard for fear they'd side with the militiamen. He monitors the situation using the State Police but through aides, he asks the federal government to step in and restore order, but cannot do so publicly.

The President of the United States gives the militia 15 days to disperse.

Mobilizing a response

The executive branch first calls the state National Guard to federal service. The Joint Staff alerts the U.S. Northern Command who orders U.S. Army North/Fifth U.S. Army to form a joint task force headquarters. Local units go on alert - in this case, the U.S. Army at Forts Bragg and Stewart in North Carolina and Georgia, respectively, and Marines at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina.

The Fifth Army begins its mission analysis and intelligence preparation of the battlefield. This includes locating enemy bases, critical infrastructure, terrain, potential weather, and other important information.

Once the Fifth Army commander has a complete picture of the militia's behavior patterns, deployments of forces, and activity inside the town, he begins a phased deployment of federal forces.

Civilian control of the military

The Fifth Army is in command of the military forces, but the Department of Justice is still the lead federal agency in charge on the ground. The Attorney General can designate a Senior Civilian Representative of the Attorney General (SCRAG) to coordinate all federal agencies and has the authority to assign missions to federal military forces. The Attorney General may also appoint a Senior Federal Law Enforcement Officer to coordinate federal law enforcement activities.

It's interesting to note that many of the Constitutional protections afforded to American citizens still apply to those in arms against the government. For instance, federal judges will still have to authorize wiretaps on rebel phones during all phases of the federal response.

Troops on the ground will be aware of local, national, and international media constantly watching them and that every incidence of gunfire will likely be investigated.

Beginning combat operations

Combat units will begin show of force operations against militiamen to remind the rebels they're now dealing with the actual United States military. Army and Marine Corps units will begin capturing and dismantling the checkpoints and roadblocks held by the militia members.

All federal troops will use the minimum amount of force, violence, and numbers necessary. Only increasing to put pressure on the insurrectionist leaders.

After dismantling checkpoints, soldiers and Marines will recapture critical infrastructure areas in the city, such as water and power stations, as well as TV and radio stations and hospitals.

Meanwhile, state law enforcement and activated National Guard units will care for the fleeing and residents of the city. This is partly for political reasons, allowing the government most susceptible to local voters to be seen largely absent from being in direct, sometimes armed conflict with their own elected officials.

Restoring government control

Federal troops will maintain law and order on the streets of the city as elected officials return to their offices. Drawing on U.S. military history, the government will likely give individual members of the militia a general amnesty while prosecuting the leaders and those who broke the law during the uprising.
As for Seth, I doubt he'd be manning the barricades, his ridiculous bluster not withstanding.
That sounds like a rather soft revolution eh? We need to imagine a real threat. I wonder if we're even able to do that? Still, as mac pointed out with the Waco example, even no threat at all isn't met with the minimum amount of force required.

God that sounds good on paper though.

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Re: What would your government do

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:44 am

There's basically no standard revolution that couldn't be put down in the US by its military. If parts of the military sided with the "rebels", then things might get interesting.

I said standard, in the sense of non- chemical/biological/nuclear-radiation attack.
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Re: What would your government do

Post by Joe » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:35 am

Sean Hayden wrote:
Joe wrote:
pErvinalia wrote:
JimC wrote:
Sean Hayden wrote:Sure, but we only have to imagine the possibility of a real threat to our governments in order to speculate about what they may do to ensure their survival.
They key, if you want to stick to your comparison with Syria, is to consider whether there are ethical differences between a democratic government resisting an internal challenge by an armed and foreign supported minority vs a dictatorship facing something similar.

To me, you seem to be implying that any government will use whatever military force it can muster to defeat an internal rebellion. That may be true, but it doesn't answer the ethical conundrum I posed above.
The thing is, while we couldn't imagine this sort of thing happening in Australia, it's fairly easy to imagine it happening in the US (although, I doubt they'd get any foreign help, unless perhaps was nefarious means) with their libertarian streak and 2nd amendment.

This is actually a debate I used to have with Seth a lot. He used to bleat on about overthrowing a tyrannous government if the constitution was legally amended to repeal the 2nd amendment or alter it significantly. He views it as tyranny, and he would consider himself a freedom fighter, but it's by definition not unconstitutional. He claimed that it would be unconstitutional, and I offered the scenario where the judiciary decided that it actually was constitutional; how would he react? Well he'd consider it tyrannical anyway and that the judiciary was being equally tyrannical. It's a circular argument, but that's how some of these nutters think. So I guess this highlights that not all "freedom fighters" are necessarily freedom fighters. They might just be ideological nut cases.
An insurrection in the mainland US would face serious obstacles, given the number of military bases spread across the country, and the fact that our military has been conducting counterinsurgency operations for decades. A couple of academics actually came up with a scenario a while back:
How it could go down

An extreme right-wing militia takes over the town of Darlington, South Carolina, placing the mayor under house arrest and disbanding the city council. Local police are disarmed or are sympathetic to the militia's cause and integrated into the militia.

The rebels choke traffic on interstates 95 and 20, collecting "tolls" to fund their arsenal and operation. Militiamen also stop rail lines and detain anyone who protests their actions.

The insurgents use social media and press conferences to invoke the Declaration of Independence as their rationale, arguing they have the right to "alter or abolish the existing government and replace it with another that, in the words of the Declaration, 'shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.'"

Because of this, they enjoy a "groundswell" of support from similarly-minded locals throughout the state. The mayor contacts the governor and his congressman. The governor doesn't call out the National Guard for fear they'd side with the militiamen. He monitors the situation using the State Police but through aides, he asks the federal government to step in and restore order, but cannot do so publicly.

The President of the United States gives the militia 15 days to disperse.

Mobilizing a response

The executive branch first calls the state National Guard to federal service. The Joint Staff alerts the U.S. Northern Command who orders U.S. Army North/Fifth U.S. Army to form a joint task force headquarters. Local units go on alert - in this case, the U.S. Army at Forts Bragg and Stewart in North Carolina and Georgia, respectively, and Marines at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina.

The Fifth Army begins its mission analysis and intelligence preparation of the battlefield. This includes locating enemy bases, critical infrastructure, terrain, potential weather, and other important information.

Once the Fifth Army commander has a complete picture of the militia's behavior patterns, deployments of forces, and activity inside the town, he begins a phased deployment of federal forces.

Civilian control of the military

The Fifth Army is in command of the military forces, but the Department of Justice is still the lead federal agency in charge on the ground. The Attorney General can designate a Senior Civilian Representative of the Attorney General (SCRAG) to coordinate all federal agencies and has the authority to assign missions to federal military forces. The Attorney General may also appoint a Senior Federal Law Enforcement Officer to coordinate federal law enforcement activities.

It's interesting to note that many of the Constitutional protections afforded to American citizens still apply to those in arms against the government. For instance, federal judges will still have to authorize wiretaps on rebel phones during all phases of the federal response.

Troops on the ground will be aware of local, national, and international media constantly watching them and that every incidence of gunfire will likely be investigated.

Beginning combat operations

Combat units will begin show of force operations against militiamen to remind the rebels they're now dealing with the actual United States military. Army and Marine Corps units will begin capturing and dismantling the checkpoints and roadblocks held by the militia members.

All federal troops will use the minimum amount of force, violence, and numbers necessary. Only increasing to put pressure on the insurrectionist leaders.

After dismantling checkpoints, soldiers and Marines will recapture critical infrastructure areas in the city, such as water and power stations, as well as TV and radio stations and hospitals.

Meanwhile, state law enforcement and activated National Guard units will care for the fleeing and residents of the city. This is partly for political reasons, allowing the government most susceptible to local voters to be seen largely absent from being in direct, sometimes armed conflict with their own elected officials.

Restoring government control

Federal troops will maintain law and order on the streets of the city as elected officials return to their offices. Drawing on U.S. military history, the government will likely give individual members of the militia a general amnesty while prosecuting the leaders and those who broke the law during the uprising.
As for Seth, I doubt he'd be manning the barricades, his ridiculous bluster not withstanding.
That sounds like a rather soft revolution eh? We need to imagine a real threat. I wonder if we're even able to do that? Still, as mac pointed out with the Waco example, even no threat at all isn't met with the minimum amount of force required.

God that sounds good on paper though.
Yeah, historically American insurrectionists tend to cool off when the troops show up. Even the 13,000 miners in the Battle of Blair Mountain began dispersing when the Army arrived and President Harding threatened aircraft attacks.

But we don't need to imagine a worst case insurrection, just think about the Civil War with today's technology, the military split into opposing forces. Of course, that would require a James Buchanan level of Presidential incompetence to let things get that far out hand.

Maybe, a more believable scenario would be a magnified repeat of the race riots of the 1960's, but more widespread and frequent, a war between alt-right neo-Nazi's and Antifa, using tactics they learned from Al Qaeda. Something like that. I think we'd see serious curtailment of civil liberties, and troops in our cities.
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"Wisdom requires a flexible mind." - Dan Carlin
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Re: What would your government do

Post by JimC » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:35 am

What if the assistance came from technologically advanced aliens?
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Re: What would your government do

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:43 am

:coffeespray:
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Re: What would your government do

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:44 am

You're in good form lately, Jim. Retirement must be treating you good. :td:
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"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

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Re: What would your government do

Post by Hermit » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:07 am

JimC wrote:What if the assistance came from technologically advanced aliens?
Your post deserves a glaxative expansion.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

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Re: What would your government do

Post by JimC » Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:31 am

pErvinalia wrote:You're in good form lately, Jim. Retirement must be treating you good. :td:
Yes, I am having a brief but impressive flowering in between work and death... :tea:
Hermit wrote:
JimC wrote:What if the assistance came from technologically advanced aliens?
Your post deserves a glaxative expansion.
I would welcome his (or its) insight into this fascinating area... :tea:
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
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Re: What would your government do

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:39 am

JimC wrote:
pErvinalia wrote:You're in good form lately, Jim. Retirement must be treating you good. :td:
Yes, I am having a brief but impressive flowering in between work and death... :tea:
:lol:

:?
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"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

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