War in Syria?

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Forty Two
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Re: War in Syria?

Post by Forty Two » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:55 pm

JimC wrote:I take the point that no one yet seems to be providing hard evidence, but the situation on the ground might make that difficult to produce. Without such hard evidence, missile strikes are not really justifiable. However, they happened, and if Assad was relying on a reluctance to shoot without good evidence, he sure got that wrong.

Some people here seem to be virtually ruling out the possibility that it was a chemical attack by the regime, just like they seem to rule out a Russian responsibility for the use of a nerve poison in England. Both remain quite possible, IMO, though clearly not proven.
So, we undertook a significant attack on a nation without UN approval, and without legislative approval in either the US or the UK, because it's "possible" though "clearly not proven" that the Assad regime used chemical weapons.

I'd be interested in seeing some decent intelligence on this. When it came to "Russian interference in the 2016 election by propaganda and facebook ads" we were treated to the publication of a memorandum on the topic by an intelligence agency, and the claims that 19 intelligence agencies had agreed.... now, when it comes to bombing people, and allegations of chemical weapons attacks, we don't get to see the memo.

What happened here is this, IMO: Trump was politically in a bad situation. He was faced with the open allegations that Assad had used chemical weapons. The mainstream media was running with that, and treating it as established. The Democrast, his opposition, were screaming bloody murder and beating war drums. So, if he refused, he would be accused of refraining from acting because he is in Putin's pocket, and for being a coward about it. So, he got himself briefed on the issue and all the right people assured him that the intelligence was there that it was Assad, and Trump could rely on the CIA and other agencies who said they think it's Assad. We, the people, don't get to see that info, of course. Sources and methods, as usual.

So, bombs away, and now the criticism is coming from the Democrats and equivalent overseas, and all the Trump opposition. Now it's going to morph into a Trump war, and Trump wagging the dog, and and all that. He was played by the war-folks, who have had Syria on the list for 25 years.

Trump's best move was to leak a "mission accomplished" meme, and announce "no permanent presence in Syria" policy ot the Russians. So, the Russians are sailing boats around, and moving some tanks here and there, and rattling sabres, and Trump is saying "we did what we came to do, and we're done." Hopefully, that's it, and this bullshit is over.

But, I was watching CNN and MSNBC over the weekend, and they're already beating an endless drum to hang this on Trump. And, he gave them the opportunity, because he ordered the attack. He should have called an emergency meeting of the UN Security Council and called for a Congressional Resolution authorizing the use of force, if deemed necessary.
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Re: War in Syria?

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:26 pm

Given that President Trump seems to get a large part of what passes for his 'agenda' from Fox News, it's interesting that CNN and MSNBC (both being news outlets for which Trump has expressed vehement disdain) are given so much credit.

'Fox News Tells Trump: Bomb Syria—Now'
On Monday morning, Bassam Rifai, a political adviser at the Syrian American Council, appeared on the Fox News program Happening Now to urge President Donald Trump to escalate in Syria in the aftermath of the reported deadly chemical weapons attack.

“I would be surprised if I didn’t see any strikes,” Rifai said. “The president needs to take swift and decisive action right now.”

Then he turned to face the camera.

“President Trump, I am speaking to you directly,” he continued. “Do not take the same mistakes that President Obama had made… What we need to do right now is to take out... Assad’s air force.”

When asked Monday afternoon if he wanted to appear on Fox News on Monday, instead of CNN or MSNBC, to try to get a message to the president—a habitual Fox watcher—Rifai simply told The Daily Beast, “Yes, that’s correct.”

Though Trump had multiple meetings on Syria with senior administration officials on Monday, Rifai was correct in assessing that what the president watches on Fox News can often influence his actions and rhetoric as much, if not more so, than the counsel of his top West Wing aides.

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Re: War in Syria?

Post by JimC » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:10 pm

Forty Two wrote:
JimC wrote:I take the point that no one yet seems to be providing hard evidence, but the situation on the ground might make that difficult to produce. Without such hard evidence, missile strikes are not really justifiable. However, they happened, and if Assad was relying on a reluctance to shoot without good evidence, he sure got that wrong.

Some people here seem to be virtually ruling out the possibility that it was a chemical attack by the regime, just like they seem to rule out a Russian responsibility for the use of a nerve poison in England. Both remain quite possible, IMO, though clearly not proven.
So, we undertook a significant attack on a nation without UN approval, and without legislative approval in either the US or the UK, because it's "possible" though "clearly not proven" that the Assad regime used chemical weapons.

I'd be interested in seeing some decent intelligence on this. When it came to "Russian interference in the 2016 election by propaganda and facebook ads" we were treated to the publication of a memorandum on the topic by an intelligence agency, and the claims that 19 intelligence agencies had agreed.... now, when it comes to bombing people, and allegations of chemical weapons attacks, we don't get to see the memo.

What happened here is this, IMO: Trump was politically in a bad situation. He was faced with the open allegations that Assad had used chemical weapons. The mainstream media was running with that, and treating it as established. The Democrast, his opposition, were screaming bloody murder and beating war drums. So, if he refused, he would be accused of refraining from acting because he is in Putin's pocket, and for being a coward about it. So, he got himself briefed on the issue and all the right people assured him that the intelligence was there that it was Assad, and Trump could rely on the CIA and other agencies who said they think it's Assad. We, the people, don't get to see that info, of course. Sources and methods, as usual.

So, bombs away, and now the criticism is coming from the Democrats and equivalent overseas, and all the Trump opposition. Now it's going to morph into a Trump war, and Trump wagging the dog, and and all that. He was played by the war-folks, who have had Syria on the list for 25 years.

Trump's best move was to leak a "mission accomplished" meme, and announce "no permanent presence in Syria" policy ot the Russians. So, the Russians are sailing boats around, and moving some tanks here and there, and rattling sabres, and Trump is saying "we did what we came to do, and we're done." Hopefully, that's it, and this bullshit is over.

But, I was watching CNN and MSNBC over the weekend, and they're already beating an endless drum to hang this on Trump. And, he gave them the opportunity, because he ordered the attack. He should have called an emergency meeting of the UN Security Council and called for a Congressional Resolution authorizing the use of force, if deemed necessary.
One issue is Russian obstructionism - they vetoed UN efforts to investigate the gas attack, which is rather convenient for Assad...
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Re: War in Syria?

Post by PsychoSerenity » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:25 pm

JimC wrote:One issue is Russian obstructionism - they vetoed UN efforts to investigate the gas attack, which is rather convenient for Assad...
The west also voted down a Russian proposal to investigate the attack, but that part has been missing from most western media. Unfortunately there's misinformation and other agendas on both sides.
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]

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Re: War in Syria?

Post by JimC » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:48 pm

PsychoSerenity wrote:
JimC wrote:One issue is Russian obstructionism - they vetoed UN efforts to investigate the gas attack, which is rather convenient for Assad...
The west also voted down a Russian proposal to investigate the attack, but that part has been missing from most western media. Unfortunately there's misinformation and other agendas on both sides.
A UN led investigation would be preferable to a solely Russian one, given their relationship with Assad. But yeah, the whole thing is very murky indeed, with self interest and conflicting motivations up to the wazoo...
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Re: War in Syria?

Post by Scot Dutchy » Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:20 am

Everything is murky on purpose. Putin and bumboy Trump are seeing too it. Along with May of course.
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Re: War in Syria?

Post by Joe » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:42 pm

And there's the fog of war. The Independent got a reporter to the clinic in Douma, and the report he filed illustrates the confusion on the ground.
Robert Fisk wrote:This is the story of a town called Douma, a ravaged, stinking place of smashed apartment blocks – and of an underground clinic whose images of suffering allowed three of the Western world’s most powerful nations to bomb Syria last week. There’s even a friendly doctor in a green coat who, when I track him down in the very same clinic, cheerfully tells me that the “gas” videotape which horrified the world – despite all the doubters – is perfectly genuine.

War stories, however, have a habit of growing darker. For the same 58-year old senior Syrian doctor then adds something profoundly uncomfortable: the patients, he says, were overcome not by gas but by oxygen starvation in the rubbish-filled tunnels and basements in which they lived, on a night of wind and heavy shelling that stirred up a dust storm.

As Dr Assim Rahaibani announces this extraordinary conclusion, it is worth observing that he is by his own admission not an eyewitness himself and, as he speaks good English, he refers twice to the jihadi gunmen of Jaish el-Islam [the Army of Islam] in Douma as “terrorists” – the regime’s word for their enemies, and a term used by many people across Syria. Am I hearing this right? Which version of events are we to believe?

By bad luck, too, the doctors who were on duty that night on 7 April were all in Damascus giving evidence to a chemical weapons enquiry, which will be attempting to provide a definitive answer to that question in the coming weeks.

France, meanwhile, has said it has “proof” chemical weapons were used, and US media have quoted sources saying urine and blood tests showed this too. The WHO has said its partners on the ground treated 500 patients “exhibiting signs and symptoms consistent with exposure to toxic chemicals”.

At the same time, inspectors from the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) are currently blocked from coming here to the site of the alleged gas attack themselves, ostensibly because they lacked the correct UN permits.

...

It was a short walk to Dr Rahaibani. From the door of his subterranean clinic – “Point 200”, it is called, in the weird geology of this partly-underground city – is a corridor leading downhill where he showed me his lowly hospital and the few beds where a small girl was crying as nurses treated a cut above her eye.

“I was with my family in the basement of my home three hundred metres from here on the night but all the doctors know what happened. There was a lot of shelling [by government forces] and aircraft were always over Douma at night – but on this night, there was wind and huge dust clouds began to come into the basements and cellars where people lived. People began to arrive here suffering from hypoxia, oxygen loss. Then someone at the door, a “White Helmet”, shouted “Gas!”, and a panic began. People started throwing water over each other. Yes, the video was filmed here, it is genuine, but what you see are people suffering from hypoxia – not gas poisoning.”
Is it true? Who knows? The friendly, Dr Rahaibani could have been a plant, but this throws a little more confusion around. :dunno:
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Re: War in Syria?

Post by Galaxian » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:17 pm

Forty Two wrote:
mistermack wrote:Trump is looking scarily easy to manipulate.
The entire mainstream media, and the "intelligence communities" of the US, UK and France are in lockstep on this.
:drunk: Yes, a gutless wimp, or at least one who doesn't give a shit for the truth, and has become a self-serving war criminal like those before him...
Here's another video evidence...Looks like a school play; it's that bad. But this crap is used by Nikki Haley at the UN Security Council. The UK & US leadership has no shame. They lie outright, without any guilt...It's their God given status:
If you're short of time, go straight to 3' 50"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DI4e-q ... mUMQGsVFjv

But, just like 9/11, the sheeples look, but they can't see, due to cognitive dissonance. How much crap acting do you spot in that video clip? But you notice that the mass media TV propagates the lies deliberately. Yes, they're paid to do so & they're cowards :coffee:
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Re: War in Syria?

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:25 pm

Joe wrote:And there's the fog of war. The Independent got a reporter to the clinic in Douma, and the report he filed illustrates the confusion on the ground.
Robert Fisk wrote:This is the story of a town called Douma, a ravaged, stinking place of smashed apartment blocks – and of an underground clinic whose images of suffering allowed three of the Western world’s most powerful nations to bomb Syria last week. There’s even a friendly doctor in a green coat who, when I track him down in the very same clinic, cheerfully tells me that the “gas” videotape which horrified the world – despite all the doubters – is perfectly genuine.

War stories, however, have a habit of growing darker. For the same 58-year old senior Syrian doctor then adds something profoundly uncomfortable: the patients, he says, were overcome not by gas but by oxygen starvation in the rubbish-filled tunnels and basements in which they lived, on a night of wind and heavy shelling that stirred up a dust storm.

As Dr Assim Rahaibani announces this extraordinary conclusion, it is worth observing that he is by his own admission not an eyewitness himself and, as he speaks good English, he refers twice to the jihadi gunmen of Jaish el-Islam [the Army of Islam] in Douma as “terrorists” – the regime’s word for their enemies, and a term used by many people across Syria. Am I hearing this right? Which version of events are we to believe?

By bad luck, too, the doctors who were on duty that night on 7 April were all in Damascus giving evidence to a chemical weapons enquiry, which will be attempting to provide a definitive answer to that question in the coming weeks.

France, meanwhile, has said it has “proof” chemical weapons were used, and US media have quoted sources saying urine and blood tests showed this too. The WHO has said its partners on the ground treated 500 patients “exhibiting signs and symptoms consistent with exposure to toxic chemicals”.

At the same time, inspectors from the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) are currently blocked from coming here to the site of the alleged gas attack themselves, ostensibly because they lacked the correct UN permits.

...

It was a short walk to Dr Rahaibani. From the door of his subterranean clinic – “Point 200”, it is called, in the weird geology of this partly-underground city – is a corridor leading downhill where he showed me his lowly hospital and the few beds where a small girl was crying as nurses treated a cut above her eye.

“I was with my family in the basement of my home three hundred metres from here on the night but all the doctors know what happened. There was a lot of shelling [by government forces] and aircraft were always over Douma at night – but on this night, there was wind and huge dust clouds began to come into the basements and cellars where people lived. People began to arrive here suffering from hypoxia, oxygen loss. Then someone at the door, a “White Helmet”, shouted “Gas!”, and a panic began. People started throwing water over each other. Yes, the video was filmed here, it is genuine, but what you see are people suffering from hypoxia – not gas poisoning.”
Is it true? Who knows? The friendly, Dr Rahaibani could have been a plant, but this throws a little more confusion around. :dunno:
I also want to know about the logic of blowing chemical weapons up. Wouldn't it just spray them all over the place leading to another chemical assault?
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Re: War in Syria?

Post by Tero » Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:06 pm

Chlorine is made from NaCl by electrolysis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloralkali_process

The real art is compressing it into gas cylinders. You can place a lower pressure in drums and drop that on people.

The chlorine stock may be vast, stored anywhere but usually not at the plant.

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