Reparations for slavery

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Re: Reparations for slavery

Post by Forty Two » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:59 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:Yep, and you can bet that would be a Fox News headline. But it's rather misleading. That level of control over spending simply doesn't exist for anyone. The dispute is over how the pot is divided, and in this case it is being suggested that more of it should be used for the benefit of African Americans hurt by slavery and racism.
That's the argument, and I've given my reason for why I don't accept it. In addition, such discrimination based on race is not something I support.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Reparations for slavery

Post by Forty Two » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:00 pm

pErvinalia wrote:
Forty Two wrote:Well, you don't think that's punishment, but to me, that's punishing people today for things that they did not do.

Also, it doesn't matter if it's not punishment. It's collective responsibility for the effects of something we had nothing to do with.
But what if you considered it as an attempt to make society better, something which benefits all of us in the long run?
I would suggest that such an effort should not be race-based.

Further, I'm not so sure it makes society better. I'm not willing to make that assumption without a good supporting argument with evidence.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Reparations for slavery

Post by Forty Two » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:02 pm

pErvinalia wrote:
Forty Two wrote: So, if the only thing you're paying reparations for is the part of the inequality and worseness of our situation today that is directly attributable to slavery, and the only people that have to pay it are "White" people, then it is holding them responsible for the wrongs of their forefathers.
Where's the suggestion that only white people pay it? :think:
Well, is someone saying black people pay reparations to themselves? It seemed inherent in the meaning of "reparation" which is to "right a wrong." But if everyone is to pay for the reparations, but only some disadvantaged people will receive the reparations, and the distribution is based on race, I think it's a racist policy in any case.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Reparations for slavery

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:06 pm

Presumably it will be funded via taxation, otherwise how else would it be funded? If it's funded by taxation, then it's race-blind in terms of who pays for it.
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Re: Reparations for slavery

Post by Forty Two » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:07 pm

JimC wrote:
pErvinalia wrote:
Forty Two wrote: So, if the only thing you're paying reparations for is the part of the inequality and worseness of our situation today that is directly attributable to slavery, and the only people that have to pay it are "White" people, then it is holding them responsible for the wrongs of their forefathers.
Where's the suggestion that only white people pay it? :think:
Maybe no direct suggestion, but it would seem obvious, in the sense that reparations that made economic sense would be paid via some form of tax surcharge, perhaps corporate and private, and the bulk would (and should, if it happens at all) would come from the wealthier and predominantly white sector of US society...
The wealthiest groups in the US are east Asian (Taiwanese, Chinese, Vietnames, Korean, etc), Philipino, Indian, Arab and Jewish. The standard "white sector" of US society is several steps down the list. Non-whites do great in the US.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Reparations for slavery

Post by Forty Two » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:11 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Forty Two wrote:If reparations are for slavery, and based on races having been held in enslavement, then no racial group is exempt from reparations, at least on a worldwide scale.

Slavery was the norm through most of human history. It was the western Enlightenment which ended it. The British Empire was one of the greatest anti-slavery forces out there.

I'm against it, because I oppose collective punishments and guilt by association, or guilt for the sins of one's ancestors.
Why does it have to be an expression of guilt rather than one of kindness, compassion, or a belated acknowledgement of the economic contribution and benefit of forced labour?
Every racial and ethnic group has been held as slaves. Why should kindness, compassion and belated acknowledgment extend only to one racial group. Slavery is the norm in the history of mankind. Tens of millions of people are held as slaves to this day, mostly in Africa and Asia. It's the West that ended slavery.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Reparations for slavery

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:12 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:
Forty Two wrote:If reparations are for slavery, and based on races having been held in enslavement, then no racial group is exempt from reparations, at least on a worldwide scale.

Slavery was the norm through most of human history. It was the western Enlightenment which ended it. The British Empire was one of the greatest anti-slavery forces out there.

I'm against it, because I oppose collective punishments and guilt by association, or guilt for the sins of one's ancestors.
Why does it have to be an expression of guilt rather than one of kindness, compassion, or a belated acknowledgement of the economic contribution and benefit of forced labour?
Every racial and ethnic group has been held as slaves. Why should kindness, compassion and belated acknowledgment extend only to one racial group.
Perhaps because for the first 250 of your country's existence it's economic miracle was rooted in the systematoc exploitation of a particular, identified oppressed and abused minority?
Slavery is the norm in the history of mankind.
Is this an appeal to moral relativism or just to tradition? Both are fallacious nonetheless.
Tens of millions of people are held as slaves to this day, mostly in Africa and Asia. It's the West that ended slavery.
So what? We can only talk about US slavery and its legacy when slavery has been irradicated globally?
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Re: Reparations for slavery

Post by Forty Two » Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:30 pm

Talk about it all you want, but the point I'm making is that I do not support race-based discrimination in this fashion, nor do I agree with your assumption that the first 250 years of the US's existence has been rooted in slavery.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Reparations for slavery

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:47 pm

Who is being racially discriminated against here?
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Re: Reparations for slavery

Post by Cunt » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:30 pm

I didn't read the thread, but if you will allow the input of an ignorant bastard...

I am a bastard. No-one knows my ancestors. This means that I am above all of your petty 'race' disagreements.

When people claim a benefit based on their race, or attack someone else based on their race, to me it sounds like bigotry. Of course, as an ignorant bastard, I could be wrong, but then again, no-one has offered me convincing arguments otherwise.

I'm glad I'm a bastard. It helps me remember that if I want to hate a group, it could very well be mine.
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Re: Reparations for slavery

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:38 am

Cunt wrote:no-one has offered me convincing arguments otherwise.
Well there this thread. But you didn't read it. We can't help you help yourself. Only you can do that.
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Re: Reparations for slavery

Post by laklak » Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:42 am

Just give me some fucking money. I don't care what you call it. GoFundMe, Reparations, Bribe, Ransom, who cares?

I need about a million U.S.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: Reparations for slavery

Post by Cunt » Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:51 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Cunt wrote:no-one has offered me convincing arguments otherwise.
Well there this thread. But you didn't read it. We can't help you help yourself. Only you can do that.
If someone wants me to give then something, it's up to then to make a case.

Unless you think I might find reparations for myself in there...

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Re: Reparations for slavery

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:09 am

Sean has made a case. But you didn't read the thread.
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Re: Reparations for slavery

Post by Forty Two » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:19 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:Who is being racially discriminated against here?
If a benefit is paid only to people based on their supposed membership in a racial group, then it's a racist policy. Those who don't receive the benefit are being discriminated against based on race.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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