The Trump effect

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The Trump effect

Post by Rum » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:28 pm

Facebook does ‘groups’. One of the ones I’m on is called ‘I love the Lake District’, which I do. I can get there in half an hour.

Currently there is an application with the powers that be to build a zip wire centre that would see several of them across Thirlmere – a ‘lake’ though actually a man made reservoir – a detail really. It sits in a deep valley with steep sides and it is rather beautiful in a brooding gloomy sort of way.

There is much heated argument on the FB group about the benefits or otherwise of the Zip wire. I am personally against it, as the Lake District is a place of tranquillity, rural retreat and an oasis of calm in this busy island and should remain so.

Here’s the thing. Those of us who are against it are being branded as ‘liberal’ elitists, subject to ‘educational snobbery’ (I like that one!) who probably vote Labour and think we know better than the loud adventurous ‘yobbish’ people who are for it. Here's one post:

“The liberals have taken over the lakes. They have this idea about the lake district all quiet and peacefully. They the same people that got a speed limit on Windermere. England's largest lake and you can't go waterskiing. Once went for a job path building for the national trust. I had 25 years experience in the building trade. But they wanted someone with a degree what the fuck is that about. The liberals have taken over the national trust and don't want the working class up there. Fact.”

Ignorance it truth. Trump is spreading his ignorance enhancing wings.

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Re: The Trump effect

Post by Joe » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:53 pm

"Liberal" seems to be a favorite pejorative these days for a certain set. They don't really know what makes a person a liberal, but if you disagree with them, you must be one. :roll:

With Trump ascendant, I guess they feel it's their time.
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Re: The Trump effect

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:16 pm

I don't think you can blame this on Trump. The UK has a long and distinguished history of completely homegrown ignorant fuckwits.

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Re: The Trump effect

Post by Rum » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:31 pm

L'Emmerdeur wrote:I don't think you can blame this on Trump. The UK has a long and distinguished history of completely homegrown ignorant fuckwits.
:lol:

True enough. But now they and their ilk have a champion.

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Re: The Trump effect

Post by Scot Dutchy » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:30 pm

Strange how 'liberal' has so many meanings. Ours is the complete opposite of yours.
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Re: The Trump effect

Post by Tero » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:59 pm

Merge merge merge! Too many trumps!! An anti-trump effect might deserve a look. I already know trumpsters too well:
”So the revealing statement was that if some 10% of working poor are abusing some program the other 90% should not get it either.”

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Re: The Trump effect

Post by Rum » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:30 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:Strange how 'liberal' has so many meanings. Ours is the complete opposite of yours.
As in Dutch? Liberal in English means - The Cambridge dictionary offers:

respecting and allowing many different types of beliefs or behaviour:

(of a political party or a country) believing in or allowing more personal freedom and development towards a fairer sharing of wealth and power within society


The illiterate unwashed masses who think their opinions are as valid as Darwin's, Hawking or the average PhD simply because they have one seem to think it means anyone who doesn't agree with their bigoted and ignorant views.

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Re: The Trump effect

Post by Forty Two » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:32 pm

Was this a sort of debate/argument that would not have occurred with this kind of commentary before Trump? I find it a tad bit hard to believe that England had a shortage of boorish louts in the days B.T.E. (Before the Trumpian Era).
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: The Trump effect

Post by Rum » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:39 pm

I'm sure we have always had our share and I wouldn't put it down to Trump being a cause in all honesty. Rather he seems to be a symptom of or an example of a view that an uninformed opinion and one based on ignorance is as valid as anyone else's - that seems to me has been emboldened over recent years.

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Re: The Trump effect

Post by Scot Dutchy » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:45 pm

Rum wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:Strange how 'liberal' has so many meanings. Ours is the complete opposite of yours.
As in Dutch? Liberal in English means - The Cambridge dictionary offers:

respecting and allowing many different types of beliefs or behaviour:

(of a political party or a country) believing in or allowing more personal freedom and development towards a fairer sharing of wealth and power within society


The illiterate unwashed masses who think their opinions are as valid as Darwin's, Hawking or the average PhD simply because they have one seem to think it means anyone who doesn't agree with their bigoted and ignorant views.
Liberal parties well we have only one the VVD are right wing conservatives who want to maintain the old free order.
de van Dale(our Oxford) wrote:1(politiek) voorstander van een zo groot mogelijke vrijheid op economisch en cultureel gebied, van een zo gering mogelijke overheidsbemoeienis
A proponent of the greatest possible freedom in economic and cultural areas with as limited as possible government intervention. (my translation).
"Wat is het een gezellig boel hier".

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Re: The Trump effect

Post by Rum » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:51 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Rum wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:Strange how 'liberal' has so many meanings. Ours is the complete opposite of yours.
As in Dutch? Liberal in English means - The Cambridge dictionary offers:

respecting and allowing many different types of beliefs or behaviour:

(of a political party or a country) believing in or allowing more personal freedom and development towards a fairer sharing of wealth and power within society


The illiterate unwashed masses who think their opinions are as valid as Darwin's, Hawking or the average PhD simply because they have one seem to think it means anyone who doesn't agree with their bigoted and ignorant views.
Liberal parties well we have only one the VVD are right wing conservatives who want to maintain the old free order.
de van Dale(our Oxford) wrote:1(politiek) voorstander van een zo groot mogelijke vrijheid op economisch en cultureel gebied, van een zo gering mogelijke overheidsbemoeienis
A proponent of the greatest possible freedom in economic and cultural areas with as limited as possible government intervention. (my translation).
This translates as 'libertarianism' in English I would suggest. The English version suggests a degree of social justice and fairness in general but withe an emphasis on personal liberty. Perhaps it is a matter of the subtlety being lost in translation.

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Re: The Trump effect

Post by Forty Two » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:44 pm

In the States, we call what Dutchy is describing as "classical liberalism" or some forms of libertarianism. However, the modern usage of "liberal" in the US is often used in place of leftist or progressive, which can be quite illiberal.

Social justice is not about fairness, of course. It's about equality, and equality may or may not be fair. Social justice is also not the same as justice, as justice refers to what is just toward an individual, whereas social justice disregards the individual and groups people into classes which are then separated into oppressor and oppressed classes so that concepts formerly applied via Marxism and Critical Theory can be applied to racial, sex, or other classifications. It's not liberal.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: The Trump effect

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:03 am

Forty Two wrote:Was this a sort of debate/argument that would not have occurred with this kind of commentary before Trump? I find it a tad bit hard to believe that England had a shortage of boorish louts in the days B.T.E. (Before the Trumpian Era).
It's definitely been boosted by it. I've never read so many whines about "political correctness" from facebook bogans as I have in the last year.
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Re: The Trump effect

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:09 am

Forty Two wrote:In the States, we call what Dutchy is describing as "classical liberalism" or some forms of libertarianism. However, the modern usage of "liberal" in the US is often used in place of leftist or progressive, which can be quite illiberal.

Social justice is not about fairness, of course. It's about equality, and equality may or may not be fair. Social justice is also not the same as justice, as justice refers to what is just toward an individual, whereas social justice disregards the individual and groups people into classes which are then separated into oppressor and oppressed classes so that concepts formerly applied via Marxism and Critical Theory can be applied to racial, sex, or other classifications. It's not liberal.
I wouldn't have thought that progressivism and social justice would be considered "liberal". Undoubtedly some liberals are progressives to degree. But I always thought "liberal" in the US referred more or less to the Democrats ideology - in theory economic and social liberalism i.e 'liberalism' - and in practice neoliberalism tempered by some social democracy.
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Re: The Trump effect

Post by Seabass » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:45 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Forty Two wrote:In the States, we call what Dutchy is describing as "classical liberalism" or some forms of libertarianism. However, the modern usage of "liberal" in the US is often used in place of leftist or progressive, which can be quite illiberal.

Social justice is not about fairness, of course. It's about equality, and equality may or may not be fair. Social justice is also not the same as justice, as justice refers to what is just toward an individual, whereas social justice disregards the individual and groups people into classes which are then separated into oppressor and oppressed classes so that concepts formerly applied via Marxism and Critical Theory can be applied to racial, sex, or other classifications. It's not liberal.
I wouldn't have thought that progressivism and social justice would be considered "liberal". Undoubtedly some liberals are progressives to degree. But I always thought "liberal" in the US referred more or less to the Democrats ideology - in theory economic and social liberalism i.e 'liberalism' - and in practice neoliberalism tempered by some social democracy.
Over here, progressivism is a subset of liberalism. So Bernie and Hillary are both considered liberals, but Bernie would also be considered a progressive, whereas Hillary would be considered a "moderate liberal" or "centrist liberal". Hillary is also called a "third way" democrat/liberal by some, but that term isn't very common these days (it was a bit more common when her hubby was in office, but quickly faded from use for the most part). Some even call her "neoliberal" (usually as an insult from someone farther to the left), but that that word isn't all that common over here either. FDR and Ralph Nader are considered progressives, but are also called liberals. Milton Friedman would be considered a classical liberal or neoliberal. Gary Johnson would be considered a libertarian. "Libertarian" and "classical liberal" are just about interchangeable, but "classical liberal" usually isn't applied to contemporaries, but rather to people from the past like Friedman or Adam Smith. Also, "social democrat" is more or less interchangeable with "progressive", but is far less commonly used.

But of course, the US is a large country, so these labels can have different meanings in different regions. So a bible-belt tea party nut might call Hillary a radical, left-wing socialist, but most people wouldn't. And of course calling someone "a liberal" might be an insult in say, rural bible-belt areas, but this obviously isn't the case in blue states. And on the other hand if you're in Seattle or San Francisco and you announce that you're a religious conservative, you might get a few stinkeyes in your direction.

As for "SJW", I doubt most people even know what that is. SJWs are known on certain corners of the internet, and some college kids fancy themselves SJWs, but I never hear about them in the real world or on TV or in the news. 42's deep-seated fear of the looming SJW apocalypse is ridiculous.

As for the word "socialist", I'm sure you're aware that that word pretty much became toxic during the Cold War, but "democratic socialist" seems to be making somewhat of a comeback due to Bernie's popularity with the yoots, much to the chagrin of conservatives who are aghast that the word has found its way back into the lexicon.
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