Sex and Gender

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JimC
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Re: Sex and Gender

Post by JimC » Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:33 pm

The sport thing is tricky, sure. Recently, a once-male now-female Aussie rules footballer was banned from playing in our main female competition (although she does play in minor leagues without any issues). The decision generated some controversy...
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Re: Sex and Gender

Post by Forty Two » Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:54 pm

JimC wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
NineBerry wrote:
Forty Two wrote: I mean, I studied biology in school. Are we not a sexually dimorphic species?
Yes, we are, but that doesn't mean that every individual is a perfect and 100% male or female. Evolution doesn't create processes that are 100% reliable.
Nobody said there weren't aberrations.
Very judgemental to call them aberrations. While it might be true in a technical sense, to use it as a label for a class of people has echoes of the gas chambers about it...
I think it's a bit much to suggest that acknowledging the "technically true" fact that there are birth defects is something like Nazi Germany's policy of considering Jews to be subhuman.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Sex and Gender

Post by Forty Two » Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:58 pm

NineBerry wrote:So, what criteria do you use to decide whether an athlete competes as a male or a female?

This apparently simple question is a lot more complex than most people would think.
I would go with biological sex. The activist athletes want to go by gender. But, with private organizations, they could do what they want, and if they want to let males and females compete against each other, so be it. I think a lot of people watching, however, would raise an eyebrow as to the weightlifter formerly known as Mikey "Muscles" Malone competing against Mary and Sue because he changed his name to Monica "Muscles" Malone and took some hormones. There is a basic difference between a person who grew up male, and then transitioned into female, and the competition is not fair in that respect.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Sex and Gender

Post by Forty Two » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:03 pm

NineBerry wrote:Sex is biological and therefore unreliable. Gender is a combination of biology and culture and therefore even more unreliable.

Problem is that when people say "sex is biology", they often wrongly assume that means that it is binary and not complex.
Another problem is when people say it's a spectrum, which it isn't. It's bimodal distribution.

Be careful, you may be trodding off the reservation by saying gender is connected in any way to biology... that's tantamount to hate speech.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Sex and Gender

Post by Forty Two » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:14 pm

NineBerry wrote:
JimC wrote:relatively small number of individual humans with biological sexual features that are blended in some way
The chance that a male person (unless they were already tested genetically or already have children) does not have a Y chromosome is higher than that he becomes a millionaire.
...it's a disorder, and such persons are invariably born sterile. They are genetically female, and the second X chromosome they have contains genetic material from the Y chromosome that they didn't get. The number of people with this disorder is 0.0025% of the population. They're not male. They're genetically female, but they have some phenotype characteristics of males - often not appearing clearly as either/or.

It's not another sex. It's not a spectrum.
Last edited by Forty Two on Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Sex and Gender

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:32 pm

Forty Two wrote:
NineBerry wrote:Sex is biological and therefore unreliable. Gender is a combination of biology and culture and therefore even more unreliable.

Problem is that when people say "sex is biology", they often wrongly assume that means that it is binary and not complex.
Another problem is when people say it's a spectrum, which it isn't. It's bimodal distribution.
Who says it's a spectrum?
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Re: Sex and Gender

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:33 pm

Forty Two wrote:
NineBerry wrote:
JimC wrote:relatively small number of individual humans with biological sexual features that are blended in some way
The chance that a male person (unless they were already tested genetically or already have children) does not have a Y chromosome is higher than that he becomes a millionaire.
...it's a disorder, and such persons are invariably born sterile. They are genetically male.... They're not male..... They're genetically female
:think:
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Re: Sex and Gender

Post by NineBerry » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:43 pm

So no clear answer to the question how to define biological sex...

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Re: Sex and Gender

Post by Forty Two » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:55 pm

Genetics. If you have an XY chromosome, you're male. If not, you're genetically female. Add a special test for those that wish to compete with Klinefelter's syndrome or the Male-XX syndrome - base that on hormone levels meeting a particular level, and have done with it.

Letting males who have sex changes to female compete against women is unfair to the women competitors. It's another way that the patriarchy oppresses women. If "transwomen are women" then there would be no reason why Bruce Jenner couldn't have a sex change in the 1970s, and win every gold medal in the female summer Olympics. https://www.bitchmedia.org/post/trans-w ... aying-this
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Sex and Gender

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:54 pm

JimC wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
NineBerry wrote:
Forty Two wrote: I mean, I studied biology in school. Are we not a sexually dimorphic species?
Yes, we are, but that doesn't mean that every individual is a perfect and 100% male or female. Evolution doesn't create processes that are 100% reliable.
Nobody said there weren't aberrations.
Very judgemental to call them aberrations. While it might be true in a technical sense, to use it as a label for a class of people has echoes of the gas chambers about it...
Yeah, it's all very Natural Law Theology isn't it?
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Sex and Gender

Post by Forty Two » Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:04 pm

Oh, I'm sorry. Is it o.k. to call these conditions syndromes, instead of aberrations? What about conditions?

The XX male syndrome is a chromosomal disorder. It's a condition which is diagnosed. Appears in about 4 out of 100,000 births.

Klinefelter's syndrome is a bit more common, in about 1 in 500 births - involves having an extra chromosome.

These aren't "sexes" or "genders."

Natural law theology, lol. It's medical science.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Sex and Gender

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:23 pm

Oh, OK, I'll take that back - it's more like tone policing, but that still involves laying down the law, doesn't it?
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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