Magic mushrooms

[pErvinalia]

The conscious-unconscious mind dissociation is a biggie in English. "The conscious mind is not conscious of the unconscious mind that is aware of so much more than the conscious mind." (But of course, this is a metaphor too, we have one mind.) Can you translate this sentence for me, Hermit?

What do you mean with the unconscious mind being aware of so much more than the conscious mind? To me awareness is by definition limited to the domain of the conscious mind. So, sorry, I cannot translate this. Not even into English.

What part of you is aware of how you are standing and knows how to adjust your muscles to keep you erect and keep you from falling?
Animals are aware of things too: of motion, for example, is this consciousness?

That's not "awareness" as such. That's autonomous feedback. It's like saying that a car engine is aware of the oxygen levels in the motor and can adjust it as needed. You wouldn't suggest, I'd presume, that a car is conscious.

[pErvinalia]

Having said that, there's plenty of neurologists/psychologists/philosophers who think that consciousness is an illusion. So to that extent, we might be no more conscious than a car.

[JimC]

Whether we say that such body feedback is part of an overall awareness or not, I think they contribute to a particularly human form of consciousness, one that is rooted in us being "in the flesh". That, plus the knowledge of our own mortality, makes me very reluctant to say computer-based Ais could ever have a truly human consciousness, particularly in terms of human artistic creativity, which is predicated on our common human condition.

That is not to say that machine consciousness is impossible, simply that it (or big parts of it, at least) will be quite alien to human understanding.

[DRSB]

I think the brain/mind is one thing, a little like a lightbulb and the glow it produces. One can't exist without the other as things stand anyway. Given how ephemeral it is I suspect consciousness is an illusion. Persistent and pretty convincing, but very temporary, elusive, and a mere wisp of a thing, easily extinguished and never repeated in quite the same way.

The bulb can exist without the glow though. And the glow does not alter the bulb. The mind does alter the brain. Anyway, any metaphor we use is too simplistic for what we are talking about.

You can learn to revivify some experiences, to access the neurochemistry that went with them. You can redirect your thought, construct events in your mind, trigger a different nerochemistry. Call it mental training, NLP, I call it hypnosis.

[DRSB]

or you can be conscious of things you are not aware of,

Can you give an example of this? While consciousness and awareness aren't synonymous, I'd expect that awareness is a subset of consciousness.

You can be conscious something is odd about somebody but you cannot pin it down to anything.

[DRSB]

The conscious-unconscious mind dissociation is a biggie in English. "The conscious mind is not conscious of the unconscious mind that is aware of so much more than the conscious mind." (But of course, this is a metaphor too, we have one mind.) Can you translate this sentence for me, Hermit?

What do you mean with the unconscious mind being aware of so much more than the conscious mind? To me awareness is by definition limited to the domain of the conscious mind. So, sorry, I cannot translate this. Not even into English.

What part of you is aware of how you are standing and knows how to adjust your muscles to keep you erect and keep you from falling?
Animals are aware of things too: of motion, for example, is this consciousness?

That's not "awareness" as such. That's autonomous feedback. It's like saying that a car engine is aware of the oxygen levels in the motor and can adjust it as needed. You wouldn't suggest, I'd presume, that a car is conscious.

I am not suggesting a car is conscious but then, we are not cars either.
The unconscious mind is always quicker than the conscious one to capture cues and information, several seconds at least. This gap is not autonomous feedback. It is awareness of some kind. But since it has not reached the conscious mind, it is unconscious. Unconscious awareness. At this level it is impossible to draw a definition to distinguish between awareness and consciousness. Unconscious consciousness is still consciousness.
Anything else you want me to clear up for you?

[pErvinalia]

or you can be conscious of things you are not aware of,

Can you give an example of this? While consciousness and awareness aren't synonymous, I'd expect that awareness is a subset of consciousness.

You can be conscious something is odd about somebody but you cannot pin it down to anything.

Well, strictly speaking you are conscious of an odd feeling. You aren't aware of the thing that you can't pin down.

[pErvinalia]

The conscious-unconscious mind dissociation is a biggie in English. "The conscious mind is not conscious of the unconscious mind that is aware of so much more than the conscious mind." (But of course, this is a metaphor too, we have one mind.) Can you translate this sentence for me, Hermit?

What do you mean with the unconscious mind being aware of so much more than the conscious mind? To me awareness is by definition limited to the domain of the conscious mind. So, sorry, I cannot translate this. Not even into English.

What part of you is aware of how you are standing and knows how to adjust your muscles to keep you erect and keep you from falling?
Animals are aware of things too: of motion, for example, is this consciousness?

That's not "awareness" as such. That's autonomous feedback. It's like saying that a car engine is aware of the oxygen levels in the motor and can adjust it as needed. You wouldn't suggest, I'd presume, that a car is conscious.

I am not suggesting a car is conscious but then, we are not cars either.

The unconscious mind is always quicker than the conscious one to capture cues and information, several seconds at least. This gap is not autonomous feedback.

Do you have any evidence to back this view up? That's not how I understand the un-/sub-conscious mind working. Everything that's not conscious is autonomous, and indeed, many people think the conscious experience is just a performance we put on for ourselves to make it seem like we chose to do something.

It is awareness of some kind. But since it has not reached the conscious mind, it is unconscious. Unconscious awareness.
At this level it is impossible to draw a definition to distinguish between awareness and consciousness. Unconscious consciousness is still consciousness.
Anything else you want me to clear up for you?

Yeah, probably how you are using awareness. I'm not sure what purpose it serves to call autonomous motor functions "awareness". It's just feedback and automatic adjustment. Same as a plant grows towards the sun.

[DRSB]

Oh, there is lots of evidence! Also the research on decision-making, how you've decided unconsciously long before you realize you did. In everyday form this is when words and actions do not match. Also the meaning of "see": when you say "I see" you have already seen.
Autonomous or not, it is paying attention, keeping track of things, constantly.

[DRSB]

Check out also implicit learning, lots of research on that, when you suddenly realize you can do something after hanging around long enough with people that can. Who does not like that?

[pErvinalia]

Sorry, I thought you meant that the unconscious mind takes several seconds to register inputs.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the gap isn't autonomous feedback". I'm not saying it is. I'm saying that the sub/unconscious acts autonomously without higher awareness. If you claim that our subconscious is "aware", then you have to also claim that plants are aware and car engines are aware. I'm assuming you draw the line of "awareness" somewhere. Where is it and why do you place it there?

[DRSB]

If I start to talk about unconscious consciousness, you'd likely ask what mushrooms I'd been eating!

[pErvinalia]

[DRSB]

[Brian Peacock]