How do you approach your own death?

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Re: How do you approach your own death?

Post by JimC » Wed May 24, 2017 3:17 am

However, the convenient illusion that is our personal "self" gives us the continuity that pragmatically makes everyday existence fairly straightforward. Without this illusion, existence would be fragmentary indeed. At death, the illusion, and everything else, simply ceases to exist.
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Re: How do you approach your own death?

Post by pErvinalia » Wed May 24, 2017 4:22 am

But when you realise the illusion, there's no reason to hold on to it in regards to the death question. In fact it makes it far more traumatic.
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Re: How do you approach your own death?

Post by Hermit » Wed May 24, 2017 4:38 am

pErvin wrote:yeah. But that's why we need "you" defined. You've made an assumption that the "you" of yesterday is the same "you" of today. I disagree. I've described my view of this before. We die at least once per day (when we sleep), but more likely millions of times a day (between discreet moments of awareness). When you view death like this, the final death becomes no different. Nothing to fear.
The you of yesterday is definitely not the same you of today, and tomorrow's you will be different again. Nevertheless, there some continuity remains. If it did not we'd have a problem finding our car keys from one day to the next. We wouldn't feel sorrow about a love lost 40 years ago or joy for having won the clown of the class award in 1965. You wouldn't wake up one morning only to remember that you were fairly confident that you'd wake up when you went to bed the previous night, but if you are an atheist you'll be fairly certain that there will be one last time you will wake up.
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Re: How do you approach your own death?

Post by JimC » Wed May 24, 2017 5:02 am

pErvin wrote:But when you realise the illusion, there's no reason to hold on to it in regards to the death question. In fact it makes it far more traumatic.
You don't need to "hold on to it" when thinking deeply about consciousness, or the nature of death. I'm only meaning that, for everyday life, it is pragmatically valuable, in fact to the point that I think it is something actually selected for (in terms of the underlying brain architecture which generates it) in our hominid past.
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Re: How do you approach your own death?

Post by pErvinalia » Wed May 24, 2017 6:00 am

Hermit wrote:
pErvin wrote:yeah. But that's why we need "you" defined. You've made an assumption that the "you" of yesterday is the same "you" of today. I disagree. I've described my view of this before. We die at least once per day (when we sleep), but more likely millions of times a day (between discreet moments of awareness). When you view death like this, the final death becomes no different. Nothing to fear.
The you of yesterday is definitely not the same you of today, and tomorrow's you will be different again. Nevertheless, there some continuity remains. If it did not we'd have a problem finding our car keys from one day to the next. We wouldn't feel sorrow about a love lost 40 years ago or joy for having won the clown of the class award in 1965. You wouldn't wake up one morning only to remember that you were fairly confident that you'd wake up when you went to bed the previous night, but if you are an atheist you'll be fairly certain that there will be one last time you will wake up.
Sure, but what comfort is that continuity to the you of yesterday that is now dead and gone? The view is exactly the same as going to sleep at night and going to sleep forever. The you of now will no longer exist tomorrow. Do people frantically fear going to sleep?
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Re: How do you approach your own death?

Post by pErvinalia » Wed May 24, 2017 6:01 am

JimC wrote:
pErvin wrote:But when you realise the illusion, there's no reason to hold on to it in regards to the death question. In fact it makes it far more traumatic.
You don't need to "hold on to it" when thinking deeply about consciousness, or the nature of death. I'm only meaning that, for everyday life, it is pragmatically valuable, in fact to the point that I think it is something actually selected for (in terms of the underlying brain architecture which generates it) in our hominid past.
It's definitely pragmatic in relation to living. But in relation to death, it's nonsensical.
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Re: How do you approach your own death?

Post by pErvinalia » Wed May 24, 2017 6:32 am

I should point out, this is all great in theory, but I won't be jumping off a bridge any time soon just to prove the theory... ;)
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Re: How do you approach your own death?

Post by Hermit » Wed May 24, 2017 6:47 am

pErvin wrote:
Hermit wrote:
pErvin wrote:yeah. But that's why we need "you" defined. You've made an assumption that the "you" of yesterday is the same "you" of today. I disagree. I've described my view of this before. We die at least once per day (when we sleep), but more likely millions of times a day (between discreet moments of awareness). When you view death like this, the final death becomes no different. Nothing to fear.
The you of yesterday is definitely not the same you of today, and tomorrow's you will be different again. Nevertheless, there some continuity remains. If it did not we'd have a problem finding our car keys from one day to the next. We wouldn't feel sorrow about a love lost 40 years ago or joy for having won the clown of the class award in 1965. You wouldn't wake up one morning only to remember that you were fairly confident that you'd wake up when you went to bed the previous night, but if you are an atheist you'll be fairly certain that there will be one last time you will wake up.
Sure, but what comfort is that continuity to the you of yesterday that is now dead and gone? The view is exactly the same as going to sleep at night and going to sleep forever. The you of now will no longer exist tomorrow. Do people frantically fear going to sleep?
My "you" of tonight will be different to my "you" tomorrow, but the continuity is not dead and gone. If it were, as I said, I'd have a problem finding my car keys from one day to the next. I wouldn't feel sorrow about a love lost 40 years ago or joy for having won the clown of the class award in 1965. The continuity is palpably manifest in the fact of being able to remember things despite my ever changing "you"s. That is why having a night's sleep does not equal death. When you know that you are about to die you also know that you won't wake up again with a changed you that remembers what happened to that different you before you fell asleep.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

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Re: How do you approach your own death?

Post by JimC » Wed May 24, 2017 6:49 am

We who are about to die salute you, Hermit...
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Re: How do you approach your own death?

Post by pErvinalia » Wed May 24, 2017 7:35 am

Hermit wrote:
pErvin wrote:
Hermit wrote:
pErvin wrote:yeah. But that's why we need "you" defined. You've made an assumption that the "you" of yesterday is the same "you" of today. I disagree. I've described my view of this before. We die at least once per day (when we sleep), but more likely millions of times a day (between discreet moments of awareness). When you view death like this, the final death becomes no different. Nothing to fear.
The you of yesterday is definitely not the same you of today, and tomorrow's you will be different again. Nevertheless, there some continuity remains. If it did not we'd have a problem finding our car keys from one day to the next. We wouldn't feel sorrow about a love lost 40 years ago or joy for having won the clown of the class award in 1965. You wouldn't wake up one morning only to remember that you were fairly confident that you'd wake up when you went to bed the previous night, but if you are an atheist you'll be fairly certain that there will be one last time you will wake up.
Sure, but what comfort is that continuity to the you of yesterday that is now dead and gone? The view is exactly the same as going to sleep at night and going to sleep forever. The you of now will no longer exist tomorrow. Do people frantically fear going to sleep?
My "you" of tonight will be different to my "you" tomorrow, but the continuity is not dead and gone. If it were, as I said, I'd have a problem finding my car keys from one day to the next. I wouldn't feel sorrow about a love lost 40 years ago or joy for having won the clown of the class award in 1965. The continuity is palpably manifest in the fact of being able to remember things despite my ever changing "you"s.
Again, that has nothing to do with pre-sleep "you". That's tomorrow's "you", which is not current "you". Current "you" dies just the same whether there is some other consciousness the next day that thinks it's "you".

That is why having a night's sleep does not equal death.
If one defines "you" as a body, then sure. But if "you" is defined as a continuous consciousness, then it does equal death.
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Re: How do you approach your own death?

Post by rainbow » Wed May 24, 2017 7:53 am

pErvin wrote:I should point out, this is all great in theory, but I won't be jumping off a bridge any time soon just to prove the theory... ;)
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Re: How do you approach your own death?

Post by Brian Peacock » Wed May 24, 2017 9:45 am

The philosophy of death is the final contemplation.
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Re: How do you approach your own death?

Post by laklak » Wed May 24, 2017 3:35 pm

This is all very interesting but where the fuck are my keys?
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: How do you approach your own death?

Post by JimC » Wed May 24, 2017 9:05 pm

The keys to the kingdom?
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Re: How do you approach your own death?

Post by Animavore » Sat May 27, 2017 7:02 am

At His Own Wake, Celebrating Life and the Gift of Death

VICTORIA, British Columbia — Two days before he was scheduled to die, John Shields roused in his hospice bed with an unusual idea. He wanted to organize an Irish wake for himself. It would be old-fashioned with music and booze, except for one notable detail — he would be present.

The party should take up a big section of Swiss Chalet, a family-style chain restaurant on the road out of town. Mr. Shields wanted his last supper to be one he so often enjoyed on Friday nights when he was a young Catholic priest — rotisserie chicken legs with gravy.

Then, his family would take him home and he would die there in the morning, preferably in the garden. It was his favorite spot, rocky and wild. Flowering native shrubs pressed in from all sides and a stone Buddha and birdbath peeked out from among the ferns and boulders. Before he got sick, Mr. Shields liked to sit in his old Adirondack chair and watch the bald eagles train their juveniles to soar overhead. He meditated there twice a day, among the towering Douglas firs.

“Someone once asked me how did I get to become unique,” he said that afternoon in his hospice bed. “I recommend meditation as a starting place — bringing your consciousness to bear.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/25/worl ... .html?_r=1
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