Islam - How Awful Is It?

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Forty Two
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Islam - How Awful Is It?

Post by Forty Two » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:27 pm

And should those who think it's awful be allowed to say so in public to the same extent as those who like it are allowed to say how great they think it is?

This whole hate speech debate and such is generally discussed in terms of people saying hateful things about people or the things people hold dear. But, sometimes it's forgotten that while the allegedly hateful things are to be barred, the nice things are allowed. So, we get a legal privilege for, say, Muslims or Christians, to run around proselytizing, saying how all the "good news" has to be shared, and all that sort of thing. But, those of us who don't like those religions are not able to say back "I don't think it's good news - in fact, I think it's downright scurrilous and awful."

Should it be that way? Should people be "protected" from significant criticism, contempt and ridicule of their dopey religions?
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Re: Islam - How Awful Is It?

Post by Svartalf » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:00 pm

Any religion that prevents you from drinking good booze and eating bacon and that requires you show the sun your rear 5 times a day is shitty, period.
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Re: Islam - How Awful Is It?

Post by Tero » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:12 pm

As awful as Christianity. But it depends on when and where you are. For example in 1500...
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Re: Islam - How Awful Is It?

Post by Svartalf » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:32 pm

thank Reason we're no longer in the 1500s ... I enjoy my atheism and would not like being burnt at the stake
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Re: Islam - How Awful Is It?

Post by JimC » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:56 pm

I might agree with most of the diatribe against Islam, but many people accompany those words with a hatred and fear of muslims in general, and a tendency to discriminate against them, often with more than a tinge of associated racism. The vast majority of muslims in the west cherry-pick their religion, and are as much "social muslims" as many others are social christians; they are not a threat. The islamic community needs to put up with a certain amount of added surveillance, however, because it remains true that, unlike other religions, terrorists (in small numbers) emerge from their religion, having decided to take the nastier bits literally...
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Re: Islam - How Awful Is It?

Post by NineBerry » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:01 pm

Very All - awe -ful

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Re: Islam - How Awful Is It?

Post by Hermit » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:17 pm

Forty Two wrote:And should those who think it's awful be allowed to say so in public to the same extent as those who like it are allowed to say how great they think it is?
You get an emphatic yes to both from me.

I do think that most of those who complain about islamophobia are actually objecting to morons seeing each and all persons who believe in the existence of Allah as the evil of Islam personified and treating them as such.
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Re: Islam - How Awful Is It?

Post by Forty Two » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:31 pm

Tero wrote:As awful as Christianity. But it depends on when and where you are. For example in 1500...
The question was "should" - is your answer that in 1500 it should have been protected from criticism?

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Re: Islam - How Awful Is It?

Post by Forty Two » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:36 pm

JimC wrote:I might agree with most of the diatribe against Islam, but many people accompany those words with a hatred and fear of muslims in general, and a tendency to discriminate against them, often with more than a tinge of associated racism. The vast majority of muslims in the west cherry-pick their religion, and are as much "social muslims" as many others are social christians; they are not a threat. The islamic community needs to put up with a certain amount of added surveillance, however, because it remains true that, unlike other religions, terrorists (in small numbers) emerge from their religion, having decided to take the nastier bits literally...
How does a subjective "tinge" of racism or hatred effect the right of someone to hate Islam? You added that as a "but" - so what's the "but"? You agree but what happens if we assume that your tinge reference is accurate?

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Re: Islam - How Awful Is It?

Post by Forty Two » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:38 pm

Hermit wrote:
Forty Two wrote:And should those who think it's awful be allowed to say so in public to the same extent as those who like it are allowed to say how great they think it is?
You get an emphatic yes to both from me.

I do think that most of those who complain about islamophobia are actually objecting to morons seeing each and all persons who believe in the existence of Allah as the evil of Islam personified and treating them as such.
In a way, they are the evil of Islam. In the Hitchensian sense of faith being the most overrated of the virtues, and the surrender of the mind, the belief in deities infects us in a most fundamental way. So even in benign forms Islam is scourge. Mind forged manacles.

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Re: Islam - How Awful Is It?

Post by JimC » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:38 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Tero wrote:As awful as Christianity. But it depends on when and where you are. For example in 1500...
The question was "should" - is your answer that in 1500 it should have been protected from criticism?
Should or shouldn't doesn't really matter. The historical reality was that christianity was protected, and in a very violent, oppressive way, no differently to the way Islam is currently protected in, say, Saudi Arabia...

Over the centuries, Christianity had its teeth pulled by the slow accumulation of enlightenment sentiments, plus its political power being curtailed by jealous secular rulers...

The same fate will hopefully happen to Islam...
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Re: Islam - How Awful Is It?

Post by Forty Two » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:43 pm

It must happen, or we are all fucked. And one of the ways Islam is looking to retain its claws and fangs is by shutting up people who don't like the Islamic horseshit.

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Re: Islam - How Awful Is It?

Post by JimC » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:45 pm

Forty Two wrote:
JimC wrote:I might agree with most of the diatribe against Islam, but many people accompany those words with a hatred and fear of muslims in general, and a tendency to discriminate against them, often with more than a tinge of associated racism. The vast majority of muslims in the west cherry-pick their religion, and are as much "social muslims" as many others are social christians; they are not a threat. The islamic community needs to put up with a certain amount of added surveillance, however, because it remains true that, unlike other religions, terrorists (in small numbers) emerge from their religion, having decided to take the nastier bits literally...
How does a subjective "tinge" of racism or hatred effect the right of someone to hate Islam? You added that as a "but" - so what's the "but"? You agree but what happens if we assume that your tinge reference is accurate?
No, I added it as a common but by all means not universal accompaniment to anti-islamic sentiments. I hasten to add that, unlike some other posters here, I'm sure that is not the case with your opposition to Islam.

As far as the implications, given the reality of racism in many anti-islamic groups, they are, I'm afraid, rather negative. It means that people who would otherwise criticise Islam feel forced to back-pedal, to avoid the appearance of getting into bed with racists...
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Re: Islam - How Awful Is It?

Post by Hermit » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:49 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Forty Two wrote:And should those who think it's awful be allowed to say so in public to the same extent as those who like it are allowed to say how great they think it is?
You get an emphatic yes to both from me.

I do think that most of those who complain about islamophobia are actually objecting to morons seeing each and all persons who believe in the existence of Allah as the evil of Islam personified and treating them as such.
In a way, they are the evil of Islam.
In other words you belong to the group of people I mentioned above who see each and all persons who believe in the existence of Allah as the evil of Islam personified. Forum rules forbid that I go on...
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Re: Islam - How Awful Is It?

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:04 am

Muslim is no more a race than Christian btw.
Forty Two wrote:But, those of us who don't like those religions are not able to say back "I don't think it's good news - in fact, I think it's downright scurrilous and awful."
Nonsense. Who's telling you you can't say religion is scurrilous and awful? You've just said it here, but do your friends, family, or colleagues get uppity if you say those things. Who or what do you think is oppressing you in this regard?
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