Problematic Stuff

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Rum » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:12 pm

It is well recognised in the field of education that middle class kids do better than working class ones. The playing field is structurally tilted. And it isn't necessarily as straightforward as putting more resources into poorer areas. Working class families (as a generalisation - and specifically in the UK) do not necessarily see education as a route to prosperity or value it for its own sake come to that. Middle class kids can often be reading by the time they get to school and so on.

Living in Hong Kong as a kid when my mom taught in a Chinese school (she taught English) I saw first hand the appreciation most Chinese families had of education as a route to riches. How you change attitudes here I don't begin to fathom.

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by laklak » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:39 pm

That mentality is also common in certain segments of society here, and I have no idea how to change it. It requires a seismic shift in attitudes, and that's a damn hard thing to accomplish. My grandpappy didn't need no book learnin', my daddy didn't need none, and I ain't neither. It might be worse here, in some ways, as there is an active rejection of education (by some) as a gummint plot to turn ar kids inta libruls and fags.

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Rum » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:48 pm

laklak wrote:That mentality is also common in certain segments of society here, and I have no idea how to change it. It requires a seismic shift in attitudes, and that's a damn hard thing to accomplish. My grandpappy didn't need no book learnin', my daddy didn't need none, and I ain't neither. It might be worse here, in some ways, as there is an active rejection of education (by some) as a gummint plot to turn ar kids inta libruls and fags.
Now that is scary - and of course Trump led the charge on exploiting that particular brand of ignorance. It has become a political force. Here and in most of the rest of the world ignorance is just that.

Sadly it is one of the reasons I think America has peaked. If you guys don't do something about this sort of thing the money will slowly bleed out as innovation declines and before you know it China will hold all the cards.

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Alan B » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:53 pm

The UK is going the same way. The indigenous white boys are bottom of the pile when it come to larnin'.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Rum » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:57 pm

Alan B wrote:The UK is going the same way. The indigenous white boys are bottom of the pile when it come to larnin'.
Yeah but so far it isn't a political movement!

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by JimC » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:31 pm

It's not just about poor parents attitudes to learning. At least a reasonable number of poor children have the ability for university courses, and quite often have supportive parents, but have a hard slog financially to achieve that goal. Middle class kids do not have the same set of financial obstacles. Sure, some kids from poverty will fight and fight, and overcome, but statistically, they are always behind the 8 ball unless the economic inequalities are recognised and sorted.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:00 am

Can't believe we even need to explain this stuff. Ideological Liberals are naive beyond belief.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:39 am

pErvinalia wrote:Ideological Liberals are naive beyond belief.
I disagree. I don't think it's naivety at all, but adherence to a set of priorities and a perspective on the world that tends to blind them to some aspects of reality. I think the same can be said of any of us. What is important is a willingness to strive to overcome this blindness. Some demonstrate a profound aversion to even considering how their ideology affects their perceptions. For instance, they might be observed to gleefully and unreservedly cheer on policies that have demonstrably harmful effects on people while being beneficial to 'business' and corporations.

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Hermit » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:56 am

L'Emmerdeur wrote:
pErvinalia wrote:Ideological Liberals are naive beyond belief.
I disagree. I don't think it's naivety at all, but adherence to a set of priorities and a perspective on the world that tends to blind them to some aspects of reality. I think the same can be said of any of us. What is important is a willingness to strive to overcome this blindness. Some demonstrate a profound aversion to even considering how their ideology affects their perceptions. For instance, they might be observed to gleefully and unreservedly cheer on policies that have demonstrably harmful effects on people while being beneficial to 'business' and corporations.
Most ideological liberals are neither naive nor do they see policies we regard as harmful to people as harmful.

For example, with the exception of a few people

Image

most ideological liberals do sincerely believe that trickle down economics works along the lines of scenario A rather than scenario B metaphorically illustrated below.

Image

They fail to see what actually happens in the real world because their ideology blinds them to the facts, but to be fair, it is not only the liberal ideology that can blind people to what is really going on. Any ideology can have the same effect, though it usually does so in relation to different sets of facts.

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:38 pm

Rum wrote:It is well recognised in the field of education that middle class kids do better than working class ones. The playing field is structurally tilted. And it isn't necessarily as straightforward as putting more resources into poorer areas. Working class families (as a generalisation - and specifically in the UK) do not necessarily see education as a route to prosperity or value it for its own sake come to that. Middle class kids can often be reading by the time they get to school and so on.

Living in Hong Kong as a kid when my mom taught in a Chinese school (she taught English) I saw first hand the appreciation most Chinese families had of education as a route to riches. How you change attitudes here I don't begin to fathom.
All perhaps true, but that doesn't mean that "meritocracy" or another one that's going around "rigor" is some feature of "whiteness" that needs to be combatted.

Look at this nonsense from a Purdue University professor, who thinks there's too much "rigor" in the teaching of STEM subjects and that's racist and sexist: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10. ... 17.1408631 - she fails to mention that Asian students beat the pants of "white" students in the US in STEM fields, and also in income and career advancement. But, it's a tool of "whiteness" that's racist and sexist against minorities and women.

That article by the Purdue University professor is rather alarming, because it appears to be one of the early attacks on STEM by the social justice progressive folks. They now want "different ways of knowing" things to be implemented because the very foundations of science and technology, math, engineering, etc., these are systemically racist, sexist and phobic things.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:40 pm

Rum wrote:
laklak wrote:That mentality is also common in certain segments of society here, and I have no idea how to change it. It requires a seismic shift in attitudes, and that's a damn hard thing to accomplish. My grandpappy didn't need no book learnin', my daddy didn't need none, and I ain't neither. It might be worse here, in some ways, as there is an active rejection of education (by some) as a gummint plot to turn ar kids inta libruls and fags.
Now that is scary - and of course Trump led the charge on exploiting that particular brand of ignorance. It has become a political force. Here and in most of the rest of the world ignorance is just that.

Sadly it is one of the reasons I think America has peaked. If you guys don't do something about this sort of thing the money will slowly bleed out as innovation declines and before you know it China will hold all the cards.
Indeed, and education in the US over the last 40 years has taken a nosedive, with Americans graduating high school now at what formerly was the 7th grade level. They're barely literate. And, what's worse is that if you leave it up to the Progressives in the US, they want to make the problem even worse because they want to lower the playing field in order to make it conform with their definition of fairness.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:48 pm

JimC wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
JimC wrote:Meritocracy is fine when there is a level playing field. However, people living in poverty, or people who are discriminated against for other reasons have larger hurdles to overcome than wealthier people with the same intrinsic abilities. Recognising this does not mean abandoning the concept of valuing intrinsic merit...
Well, playing fields are never level. Some people are physically stronger and some people have greater intelligence. Some kids have parents who read to them before bed every night. That doesn't mean meritocracy isn't fine.
What this does not address is systemic bias against groups, which means that 2 people of equal intrinsic "merit" (however we might define that) will not have equal opportunities for education (initially) and jobs (eventually).
Well, one has to be more specific than that -- what systemic bias? There is no systemic obstacle to education or work in the US or Australia, is there? If so, what are those specific obstacles that are systemic? "of or relating to a system," and "system" being an organized or established procedure or body as a whole.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Seabass » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:39 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Rum wrote:
laklak wrote:That mentality is also common in certain segments of society here, and I have no idea how to change it. It requires a seismic shift in attitudes, and that's a damn hard thing to accomplish. My grandpappy didn't need no book learnin', my daddy didn't need none, and I ain't neither. It might be worse here, in some ways, as there is an active rejection of education (by some) as a gummint plot to turn ar kids inta libruls and fags.
Now that is scary - and of course Trump led the charge on exploiting that particular brand of ignorance. It has become a political force. Here and in most of the rest of the world ignorance is just that.

Sadly it is one of the reasons I think America has peaked. If you guys don't do something about this sort of thing the money will slowly bleed out as innovation declines and before you know it China will hold all the cards.
Indeed, and education in the US over the last 40 years has taken a nosedive, with Americans graduating high school now at what formerly was the 7th grade level. They're barely literate. And, what's worse is that if you leave it up to the Progressives in the US, they want to make the problem even worse because they want to lower the playing field in order to make it conform with their definition of fairness.
As usual, you're full of shit. You really think "progressives" are to blame for all the stupidity in this country, and not the dumbass, creationist, religious conservative Republicans that you vote with?

http://time.com/101697/blue-states-bara ... ed-states/
http://247wallst.com/special-report/201 ... -states/2/
https://wallethub.com/edu/most-educated-states/31075/
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/31/opin ... -blue.html
http://politicsthatwork.com/blog/blue-s ... states.php

The redder the state, the dumber and poorer the people are, broadly speaking.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Rum » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:54 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Rum wrote:
laklak wrote:That mentality is also common in certain segments of society here, and I have no idea how to change it. It requires a seismic shift in attitudes, and that's a damn hard thing to accomplish. My grandpappy didn't need no book learnin', my daddy didn't need none, and I ain't neither. It might be worse here, in some ways, as there is an active rejection of education (by some) as a gummint plot to turn ar kids inta libruls and fags.
Now that is scary - and of course Trump led the charge on exploiting that particular brand of ignorance. It has become a political force. Here and in most of the rest of the world ignorance is just that.

Sadly it is one of the reasons I think America has peaked. If you guys don't do something about this sort of thing the money will slowly bleed out as innovation declines and before you know it China will hold all the cards.
Indeed, and education in the US over the last 40 years has taken a nosedive, with Americans graduating high school now at what formerly was the 7th grade level. They're barely literate. And, what's worse is that if you leave it up to the Progressives in the US, they want to make the problem even worse because they want to lower the playing field in order to make it conform with their definition of fairness.
That isn't happening here - nor are the attempts to redefine what learning is (as per your post above). Instead our inspectorate of schools (Ofsted) has a standard it expects all schools to attain. There is an inspection regime and all schools are very thoroughly scrutinised on a regular basis. Every school is graded Outstanding, Good, Requires improvement or Inadequate.

In terms of this discussion the playing field is flat. Allowances are not made for geographical, social or economic/deprivation reasons. They take the rather tough line that a school in a rough area can (and does) often become Outstanding because of excellent head teachers and other staff.

My old job was primary focused on assisting schools to reach the required standards with regards to struggling kids of one sort or another.

The point here is that creative (and sometimes financial) ways are found to help schools reach struggling kids and no excuses are in theory allowed. I saw a number of head teachers lose their jobs because try as they might they couldn't make it from 'requires improvement' to Good or better.

It is true to say though that in the real world tough areas tend to have poorer performing schools, but it is not as clear cut as one might think.

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by JimC » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:29 pm

Forty Two wrote:
JimC wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
JimC wrote:Meritocracy is fine when there is a level playing field. However, people living in poverty, or people who are discriminated against for other reasons have larger hurdles to overcome than wealthier people with the same intrinsic abilities. Recognising this does not mean abandoning the concept of valuing intrinsic merit...
Well, playing fields are never level. Some people are physically stronger and some people have greater intelligence. Some kids have parents who read to them before bed every night. That doesn't mean meritocracy isn't fine.
What this does not address is systemic bias against groups, which means that 2 people of equal intrinsic "merit" (however we might define that) will not have equal opportunities for education (initially) and jobs (eventually).
Well, one has to be more specific than that -- what systemic bias? There is no systemic obstacle to education or work in the US or Australia, is there? If so, what are those specific obstacles that are systemic? "of or relating to a system," and "system" being an organized or established procedure or body as a whole.
The disadvantage is very simple and clear-cut, particularly for tertiary education. Students with reasonably wealthy parents can be supported financially over their tertiary studies, and not have to live in poverty as they study, and they either don't need a part time job, or it may only be a few hours a week. Students from poor families don't have this luxury; they live in shit places, and spend a large amount of time working to keep themselves. It is particularly evident for the rural poor in Oz, where living at home (often the case for Uni students in big cities) is not an option, so they need to rent as well as keep themselves fed when they go to a big city to study.
So, I'm not talking about anything other than a greater burden, statistically, on the children of poor parents, one that tends on average to maintain professions such as the law and medicine in the hands of the existing wealthy, rather than allowing significant upward mobility out of poverty via education.
Forty Two wrote:
Rum wrote:It is well recognised in the field of education that middle class kids do better than working class ones. The playing field is structurally tilted. And it isn't necessarily as straightforward as putting more resources into poorer areas. Working class families (as a generalisation - and specifically in the UK) do not necessarily see education as a route to prosperity or value it for its own sake come to that. Middle class kids can often be reading by the time they get to school and so on.

Living in Hong Kong as a kid when my mom taught in a Chinese school (she taught English) I saw first hand the appreciation most Chinese families had of education as a route to riches. How you change attitudes here I don't begin to fathom.
All perhaps true, but that doesn't mean that "meritocracy" or another one that's going around "rigor" is some feature of "whiteness" that needs to be combatted.

Look at this nonsense from a Purdue University professor, who thinks there's too much "rigor" in the teaching of STEM subjects and that's racist and sexist: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10. ... 17.1408631 - she fails to mention that Asian students beat the pants of "white" students in the US in STEM fields, and also in income and career advancement. But, it's a tool of "whiteness" that's racist and sexist against minorities and women.

That article by the Purdue University professor is rather alarming, because it appears to be one of the early attacks on STEM by the social justice progressive folks. They now want "different ways of knowing" things to be implemented because the very foundations of science and technology, math, engineering, etc., these are systemically racist, sexist and phobic things.
This sort of nonsense goes too far, of course, and is not part of any argument of mine.
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