Problematic Stuff

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pErvinalia
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:22 am

Alan B wrote:
pErvinalia wrote:It probably technically is here as well, but there's no way to know who defaced a ballot. Even the politicians here joke about it from time to time. It's a bit of a tradition to deface your ballot paper in some circles. There's times I've thought about it with compulsory preferencing. I shouldn't be required to feed my vote to one of the two majors if I don't want them getting it. Thankfully Labor has pulled back a little bit from its Third Way (aka neoliberalism-lite) tendencies of past decades. It's not as offensive now to send my vote their way via preferences. On ideological grounds I'd still rather they didn't get it. But in terms of practicality, I'd do almost anything to avoid helping a conservative win anything.
While I agree with mandatory voting, I would object to no option to 'Abstain'. Without that option, it's nothing less than a bullying tactic. As you say, the only answer seems to be spoiling the ballot paper.
One handy positive is that they do count informal votes (i.e. spoiled ballots), so there is some record of potential voter discord. Although, some proportion of those spoiled votes will be people trying to vote properly but who just fuck it up for some reason.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:02 am

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:00 am

pErvinalia wrote:
:blah: We've heard it all before. A citizen number is totally irrelevant to that.

And what's Big Brother about it? Well the government needing to know where you live at all times, for a start.
What is wrong with that? The government provides services so it must know where they are needed. The anglo-saxon mind set is amazing. You tell everything on Facebook but telling the government where you live is a big nono. FB knows more about you but that does not bother you. :hehe:
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:04 am

Svartalf wrote:I don't agree with mandatory voting, not so long as blank and null ballots won't legally serve a purpose, people who don't vote express their disgust about the system and/or their lack of trust for any of the proffered canidates... forcing people to vote without giving them an outles for such feelings is simple tyranny.
It used to be mandatory here as well. It was stopped back in the 60's. The levels of voting have fallen by roughly 20%.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:10 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
pErvinalia wrote:
:blah: We've heard it all before. A citizen number is totally irrelevant to that.

And what's Big Brother about it? Well the government needing to know where you live at all times, for a start.
What is wrong with that? The government provides services so it must know where they are needed. The anglo-saxon mind set is amazing. You tell everything on Facebook but telling the government where you live is a big nono. FB knows more about you but that does not bother you. :hehe:
I don't tell facebook anything. And the government provides services based on the once every four years census. There's not that large amount of movement in four years between censuses that government services are going to be misallocated to any great degree. UK, Canadian, NZ and Australian society runs fine without the government knowing where we live at every instance. You might trust politicians and the security services, but most of us don't. And for good reason, given the history of government and security services misusing personal information.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:38 am

pErvinalia wrote:
I don't tell facebook anything. And the government provides services based on the once every four years census. There's not that large amount of movement in four years between censuses that government services are going to be misallocated to any great degree. UK, Canadian, NZ and Australian society runs fine without the government knowing where we live at every instance. You might trust politicians and the security services, but most of us don't. And for good reason, given the history of government and security services misusing personal information.
You tell Facebook just by logging on. Facebook works by association.
The wondrous anglo-saxon mindset. So you dont mind telling every four years but whoa if you have to register. What is the damn difference? You cancelled your own argument by saying little happens in four years. Do you think the security services cant trace you? Dont be so naive.
The UK society does not run well on the system and census in the UK in hap hazard which is why it attracts so many immigrants. The UK authorities have not got a clue who lives in the country. As for ONS it is a fantasy organisation. All its data is fantasy. It claimed that over 100,000 students were outstaying their student visa. A group from a university made their own enquiries and found the number is more like 5000. The same is true of unemployment. ONS does not use the standard European methods of measurements it has its own which is why unemployment is so low. Applying European standards it would be closer to 22% and not the 5% that ONS claims.

We in Europe want real data. It is far better for government.
European countries are not in principle adversarial which is another thing the anglo-saxon mindset has trouble with. We look first for compromise and negotiations. The British government system which has been copied in most dominions is pure adversarial. Like its law courts; bugger the truth get the conviction.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Rum » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:27 am

This 'Anglo Saxon mind set' is getting pretty racist in my view. You are attributing a wide range of stereotypical values to it - and therefore to many of us here - including myself (as you have in the past).

Considering my father was Welsh and my mother's family were from Ireland three generations ago I would have thought I would more accurately be described as having a Celtic mindset..whatever that might consist of. And if it is not simply a genetic issue but an environmental one then I would have though pErv would have some claim to holding an antipodean mind set.

You are using language lazily to reinforce your own belief that you and what you believe in are right to the exclusion of everyone else.

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Brian Peacock » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:03 am

Yeah, it's a typical lowlander mindset.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by JimC » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:05 am

Every community gets the political system it deserves.

Shit, that means that we are all, in such a variety of ways, completely moronic arseholes...

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:34 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
pErvinalia wrote:
I don't tell facebook anything. And the government provides services based on the once every four years census. There's not that large amount of movement in four years between censuses that government services are going to be misallocated to any great degree. UK, Canadian, NZ and Australian society runs fine without the government knowing where we live at every instance. You might trust politicians and the security services, but most of us don't. And for good reason, given the history of government and security services misusing personal information.
You tell Facebook just by logging on. Facebook works by association.
The wondrous anglo-saxon mindset.
The wondrous mindset of someone who has no idea what he's talking about. We've had this discussion before about facebook. I use a fake name and have location disabled. All facebook knows about me is that a person with my fake name lives in the town of kingscliff (and once lived in the town of Fucking, Austria :hehe: ). That's it. They can of course glean from my posts that I am a lefty and like photography. But without my actual name or address or phone number, that is absolutely meaningless.
So you dont mind telling every four years but whoa if you have to register. What is the damn difference? You cancelled your own argument by saying little happens in four years. Do you think the security services cant trace you? Dont be so naive.
There's a big difference between being specifically targetted by the security services and being hoovered up in a bulk data mining/fishing operation to be potentially misused for political or worse reasons.
European countries are not in principle adversarial which is another thing the anglo-saxon mindset has trouble with. We look first for compromise and negotiations. The British government system which has been copied in most dominions is pure adversarial. Like its law courts; bugger the truth get the conviction.
Stop bleating on about the "anglo-saxon" mindset, whatever that is. You sound ridiculous. You trust big brother, I don't. It's got nothing to do with nationality. It's got to do with your sheep like tendencies. You simply don't need to know who is living where at all instances. That's an unreasonably intrusive state.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:09 am

Rum wrote:This 'Anglo Saxon mind set' is getting pretty racist in my view. You are attributing a wide range of stereotypical values to it - and therefore to many of us here - including myself (as you have in the past).

Considering my father was Welsh and my mother's family were from Ireland three generations ago I would have thought I would more accurately be described as having a Celtic mindset..whatever that might consist of. And if it is not simply a genetic issue but an environmental one then I would have though pErv would have some claim to holding an antipodean mind set.

You are using language lazily to reinforce your own belief that you and what you believe in are right to the exclusion of everyone else.
How racist? It is an acknowledge fact. Which is why the UK was unable to understand the EU and only sees it as an adversarial counterpart. Also the reason why Brexit will fail. The inability to compromise is the result of having an empire that was totally exploited. The ruling classes were unable to have any empathy for the people they ruled. They exploited them and felt superior doing it. A feeling even today still exists and raises its ugly head from time to time. Brexit itself is a typical example. The UK never expected the EU to treat it the way it has. The UK wanted to cherry pick and have its cake and eat it. It had all the illusions of grandeur and superiority that it had at the time of the Raj. Now the cold reality is setting in and the ruling classes dont like it.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Rum » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:05 am

You are beginning to sound like Crumple. This post is incoherent, full of generalisations and assertions that have no evidence behind them. Nobody I know thinks that the 'Anglo Saxon mind set' exists at all let alone that it is 'acknowledged fact'.

In passing I think you are wrong about Britons harking back to days of Empire. Perhaps they did up until you jumped ship and decided to throw your lot in with those of a Tulip Mindset, but no longer. Nobody talks about it any more in terms of nostalgia and there has been a gradual acceptance over the last 30 years or so that British Imperialism was not the enlightening and positive force in the world it liked to think it was back in the day.

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:14 pm

Rum wrote:You are beginning to sound like Crumple. This post is incoherent, full of generalisations and assertions that have no evidence behind them. Nobody I know thinks that the 'Anglo Saxon mind set' exists at all let alone that it is 'acknowledged fact'.

In passing I think you are wrong about Britons harking back to days of Empire. Perhaps they did up until you jumped ship and decided to throw your lot in with those of a Tulip Mindset, but no longer. Nobody talks about it any more in terms of nostalgia and there has been a gradual acceptance over the last 30 years or so that British Imperialism was not the enlightening and positive force in the world it liked to think it was back in the day.
Strange that exactly what I hear from the Brexiteers. Have you another explanation?

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:20 pm

pErv

You really dont have a clue do you? Really what a load of guff seriously deranged. "Oh look at me I use Facebook but I am much cleverer than their programmers"

You should be working for them if you are SO clever. You think you can escape from Big Brother? Sorry to disappoint you; you cant so get used to it.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:51 pm

This is just the same conversation we had in the other thread. I asked you to provide evidence of how they can allegedly get all this information about me, and you provided nothing. Argument from incredulity isn't a good argument.
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"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

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