Problematic Stuff

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:44 am

We've got something very problematic brewing in Australia at the moment. The state government wants to impose a ban on right-to-lifers and other such loons harassing women outside abortion clinics. No one will be allowed within 150m of the entrance of an abortion clinic if they are harassing the clients. This is an outrageous attack on freedom of speech and association, and the federal Women's Minister has rightly stepped up to say so (no shit :doh: ). This is the thin edge of the wedge. Soon ordinary straight old white guys won't be able to call people black cunts or coons etc. Shocking, to say the least...
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Sean Hayden » Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:33 am

Man that's awesome. They have volunteers to protect women outside clinics here. They're probably feminazis though.

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:54 am

Yeah, a mate of mine does that in his spare time (which is apparently a lot). He's a commie. I'd do it too except I'd want to drive my car into them.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:21 pm

pErvinalia wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:32 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:36 pm
pErvinalia wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:23 am
Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:41 pm
pErvinalia wrote:Arguably the media wears a large chunk of the responsibility for Trump. A weak as piss media, by not adequately confronting the default neoliberalism narrative over the last 40 years, has allowed bullshit concepts like "trickle down", regulation slashing, and "small government", to become essentially entrenched principles in governance. And by further peddling the fear that right wing politicians push about brown people stealing jobs and welfare at the same time, and also wanting to marry your children and blow up your friends. The media is responsible in part for this state of affairs which is an indebted, fearful, insecure worker voting for a dangerous moron like Trump.
When a media outlet is obliged to reflect the views of it's owners what more can we expect from the journalists it employs?
Yeah, the neoliberal capitalist ethic is sort of self-reinforcing. Media companies make cuts in the aim of "efficiency" and profits, and you end up with a shit organisation that doesn't adequately challenge neoliberalism and "trickle-down" etc, which in turn leads to more cuts... rinse repeat.
Assuming that's true, what alternative do you suggest?
Well, assured government funding for a strong and independent (as much as possible) media organisation, and then not allowing the private media scape to concentrate enough such that diversity of opinion is stifled.
I agree with the media concentration. A good utilization of anti-trust laws to prevent excessive mergers would be helpful. I find an informal "too big to fail" test to be helpful here. If a business enterprise is too big to fail, then it should be broken up, or if it will become too big to fail after a merger, then it should not be allowed to merge. No enterprise should be able to say to the government "bail me out, or I'm taking the economy/industry with me..." that includes media outlets.

I don't know what you mean by assured government funding and strong/independent media organization. If the government pays for the news, then it's not "independent" of the government. However, a public broadcasting channel that receives some government funding, in the nature of funding of the arts and sciences, is certainly not an issue.

A State news agency, though, risks becoming Pravda. That doesn't help anyone.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:30 pm

pErvinalia wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:44 am
We've got something very problematic brewing in Australia at the moment. The state government wants to impose a ban on right-to-lifers and other such loons harassing women outside abortion clinics. No one will be allowed within 150m of the entrance of an abortion clinic if they are harassing the clients. This is an outrageous attack on freedom of speech and association, and the federal Women's Minister has rightly stepped up to say so (no shit :doh: ). This is the thin edge of the wedge. Soon ordinary straight old white guys won't be able to call people black cunts or coons etc. Shocking, to say the least...
I think that protecting people from "harassment" is fine. However, by merely setting a rule that "no one will be allowed within 150 m of the entrance" is overly broad of that goal, and likely it's not "no one" but it's people expressing a particular viewpoint that are the problem. So, the risk is that the State is picking a winner in a public space. It's a sidewalk where any member of the public is allowed to go, but you can't go there if you carry a sign that says "end abortion now!" That's a problem for freedom of speech and association, yes.

It's a lot like the issue here a few years back with those turds at the Westboro Baptist Church protesting at soldier's funerals - well, not "at" the funerals, but nearby the cemetaries and funeral homes, but on public ways. Of course, people are offended by them, and they are nasty dolts and freaks. Their message is hateful, and mean. They stand their with their "god hates fags" and "god loves dead soldiers" signs and walk about sending mean messages. The thing is, they were in places where everyone else is allowed to go, and everyone else is allowed to have their message heard, if they want to. To prohibit them based on their message, in a public space, is the State legislating an orthodoxy of thought. Some views are legal, others are not.

Harassment, of course, is different, but there is a difference between harassment and demonstration and voicing of political opinions. If carrying signs and chanting is harassment, then antifa are huge harassers. The next step, when you give the State a precedent to decide which opinions cause too much trouble and offense to be allowed, is that the State starts taking the easy way out, and using censorship as a tool to keep order. While we may agree now that that people at funerals and women going into abortion clinics are sympathetic persons - and I do agree with that - the State won't stop there, because at some point the political winds blow the other direction, and the other side may see other groups as likewise sympathetic persons who deserve protection from protest.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:29 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:21 pm
pErvinalia wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:32 pm
Well, assured government funding for a strong and independent (as much as possible) media organisation, and then not allowing the private media scape to concentrate enough such that diversity of opinion is stifled.
I agree with the media concentration. A good utilization of anti-trust laws to prevent excessive mergers would be helpful. I find an informal "too big to fail" test to be helpful here. If a business enterprise is too big to fail, then it should be broken up, or if it will become too big to fail after a merger, then it should not be allowed to merge. No enterprise should be able to say to the government "bail me out, or I'm taking the economy/industry with me..." that includes media outlets.

I don't know what you mean by assured government funding and strong/independent media organization. If the government pays for the news, then it's not "independent" of the government. However, a public broadcasting channel that receives some government funding, in the nature of funding of the arts and sciences, is certainly not an issue.

A State news agency, though, risks becoming Pravda. That doesn't help anyone.
Well Australia's ABC and SBS, and the BBC's in the UK aren't Pravdas. That's why I said "assured". Meaning, it can't be cut just because it's publishing news the government doesn't like.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by JimC » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:12 am

Which is exactly what the coalition government is doing to the ABC right now...

Quite the opposite to a Pravda-like media outlet...
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:29 am

Yep. They continually try and decimate it, because it's too left wing for them. The reality is, it's only really centre-left at most. And that's only because the centre has marched to the right so much in the last 40 years. And as they say, reality has a left wing bias..
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Hermit » Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:12 am

Forty Two wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:21 pm
I don't know what you mean by assured government funding and strong/independent media organization. If the government pays for the news, then it's not "independent" of the government. However, a public broadcasting channel that receives some government funding, in the nature of funding of the arts and sciences, is certainly not an issue.

A State news agency, though, risks becoming Pravda. That doesn't help anyone.
Government funding of the ABC and SBS no more makes them play their tune than government funding of polling booths brings the voters to heel. Our governments have no say in who runs either, nor how they run it. They are not blackmailed when funds are cut, nor are they bribed when the funds are restored. Conservative and liberal governments alike regularly complain that some ABC or SBS (TV as well as radio and web presence) reportage is being unfair or biased against them. As far as I am concerned that means our government funded media are doing it right. You can stick the attempted association of them with Pravda up your arse. Sideways. Then rotate. Vigorously.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:47 am

Hermit wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:12 am
Forty Two wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:21 pm
I don't know what you mean by assured government funding and strong/independent media organization. If the government pays for the news, then it's not "independent" of the government. However, a public broadcasting channel that receives some government funding, in the nature of funding of the arts and sciences, is certainly not an issue.

A State news agency, though, risks becoming Pravda. That doesn't help anyone.
Government funding of the ABC and SBS no more makes them play their tune than government funding of polling booths brings the voters to heel. Our governments have no say in who runs either, nor how they run it. They are not blackmailed when funds are cut, nor are they bribed when the funds are restored. Conservative and liberal governments alike regularly complain that some ABC or SBS (TV as well as radio and web presence) reportage is being unfair or biased against them. As far as I am concerned that means our government funded media are doing it right. You can stick the attempted association of them with Pravda up your arse. Sideways. Then rotate. Vigorously.
Yep.

Although, I think the government decides the chairman (who then picks the board?).
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Hermit » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:47 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:47 am
Although, I think the government decides the chairman (who then picks the board?).
There is a Chair, but for running the show the top dog is the Managing Director who is chosen by the board of directors. The board is in turn selected from a short list compiled by an independent panel established "at arm's length" from the Communications Minister. If the minister chooses someone outside that list he is required to justify this to parliament. That has happened in the past and it has caused problems, but very rarely. *cough* Keith Windschuttle *cough* for example.

It's all rather more complicated than that, but the upshot is that the ABC is extremely unlikely to turn into a mouthpiece of the government or any one particular interest group. The relatively frequent changes of which party is in power and the strength of whoever is in opposition as a result also constitute pretty much insurmountable hurdles of it turning into a Pravda style propaganda tool. So, it gives me great pleasure to once again present 0.42 with a heartfelt :obc: for attempting to associate the one with the other. Fucking yanks...
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:24 am

Just to note:

'Public broadcasting chief decries proposed Trump budget cuts'
The president and CEO of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting (CPB) warned Monday of the negative effects that President Trump's proposed budget cuts could have on public broadcasting.

Trump's budget proposes eliminating federal funding for the CPB over a two-year period. The budget has to be approved by Congress before it can take effect.

In a statement released Monday, Patricia Harrison said that the "elimination of funding to CPB would at first devastate, and then ultimately destroy public media's ability to provide early childhood content, life-saving emergency alerts, and public affairs programs."


[The Corporation for Public Broadcasting] does not produce programming and does not own, operate or control any public broadcasting stations. Additionally, CPB, PBS, and NPR are independent of each other and of local public television and radio stations.

CPB strives to support diverse programs and services that inform, educate, enlighten and enrich the public. Through grants, CPB encourages the development of content that addresses the needs of underserved audiences, especially children and minorities. CPB also funds multiple digital platforms used by thousands of public media producers and production companies throughout the country.

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:16 pm

Hang on, but I thought government funded media was pro government. Like Pravda was.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:17 pm

Hermit wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:12 am
Forty Two wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:21 pm
I don't know what you mean by assured government funding and strong/independent media organization. If the government pays for the news, then it's not "independent" of the government. However, a public broadcasting channel that receives some government funding, in the nature of funding of the arts and sciences, is certainly not an issue.

A State news agency, though, risks becoming Pravda. That doesn't help anyone.
Government funding of the ABC and SBS no more makes them play their tune than government funding of polling booths brings the voters to heel. Our governments have no say in who runs either, nor how they run it. They are not blackmailed when funds are cut, nor are they bribed when the funds are restored. Conservative and liberal governments alike regularly complain that some ABC or SBS (TV as well as radio and web presence) reportage is being unfair or biased against them. As far as I am concerned that means our government funded media are doing it right. You can stick the attempted association of them with Pravda up your arse. Sideways. Then rotate. Vigorously.
I said nothing about Australia's broadcasting companies. I was discussing the general concepts. Do you consider ABC to be "a State news agency?" If not, then the Pravda comment doesn't enter into it. That was one end of the spectrum, not an accusation against Australia.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:23 pm

You said " If the government pays for the news, then it's not "independent" of the government.", and then went on to talk about Pravda.
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"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

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