Problematic Stuff

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by laklak » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:01 pm

Fuck everybody who doesn't think exactly like me, that's my motto. OK not really, my motto actually is "Fuck All Y'all", but it's implied.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:33 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:Again, you've fallen to scapegoating a singled out ideology in the service of your own brand self-righteous moralising. The following could be said about the nasty end of the right as much as the left...
  • "So, they're violent. They're self-righteous moralizers. And, they add to that an incoherent and internally inconsistent ideology, which they believe despite its own absurdity. They have a fervor. A righteous ferver."
The question is, why is the ideology of the far-left singled out so keenly and so often, while you not only avoid criticising right-wing ideologues but defend them on the basis of their presumed moral equivalence with the far-left?

Let me reinstate my point so that you might address it head on: the problem (for most of us) is with the ideologies of ideologues, regardless of the bearing on their political compass.
The question is, why is the ideology of the far-left singled out so keenly [by Forty Two] and so often, while you [Forty Two] not only avoid criticising right wing ideologues, but defend them on the basis of presumed moral equivalence with the far left?

Good question, deserving of a straight answer, although I've partly answered this already.

One, I single out the far left for more comment and criticism because there is more of this lunacy coming from the far left. Every single day I see a new story about some speaker being harassed off the stange, windows being pounded on and broken, violent protests and threats, including people like college professors taking part in it. College professors rioting with antifa and hitting people in the head with bike locks. College professors infringing on the rights of student reporters in public spaces. Property damage. Assault. And, then academic papers, one after the other, declaring men, society, college, math, science, biology, air conditioning, clothing, razor blades, climate change, glaciers, climate science, logic, objectivity, and the list goes on and on, to be tools of the patriarchy. From the left wingers come microaggression theory, the Progressive Stack, and item after item that we have been able to discuss in thread after thread - day after day - like a drumbeat for years - not ending. We're to pronouns, compelled speech, and words equating to violence. We're to declarations that guys like Jordan Peterson are Nazis and that 21 year old teaching assistants are oppressing college professors and diversity offers with her "white girl tears." I can - and might - write a book on it. It's never ending.

Two, there are allies in the media and in the general public among more moderate spheres that support this sort of thing. It's not resounding criticized and rebuked. It's defended, apologized for, and the critics of it are often called, by mainstream media outlets, haters, fascists, and other such nonsense.

Three, the difference is - and the reason I don't focus on the similar end of the right - is that there is not nearly as many iterations of idiocy coming out of the right - the right extremists are basically one-trick ponies - they're white Christian or Muslim extremists that hate jews, and/or blacks and/or gays etc - and they act accordingly - they scream and yell, and march and here and there they commit violence - but they don't give us new fodder all the time - they don't publish articles in academic journals explaining the oppression of the white people and blaming the matriarchy. They don't claim that discussion of black rights is a microaggression against them. They aren't taken seriously by anyone in the mainstream and their views are publicly denounced whenever it's an issue in the mainstream media. There are no defenders of them, except among their very small number of ilk -- if you're not marching with the Nazis, you're opposed to the Nazis. There aren't droves of people out there going, "you know what, those Nazis have a good point."

Three, the far left is NOT singled out so keenly in the press and the media for criticism. Most of the news reports about, say, Jordan Peterson having his stage commandeered for a time by obscenity throwing protesters, who are then removed and who then pound on stained glass windows for 90 minutes to interfere withthe talk, until some are even broken in the process, and then they block the doors so attendees cannot exit, and then they follow the attendees screaming at them. You don't see that on CNN. If it were right wingers, you would see them on CNN, front and center - with the caption that in the age of Trump, right winger Nazis are emboldened or something like that. But, when it's the leftists, you get sparce coverage, and each article is peppered with apologetics, trying to make the case why the protesters are really on the side of right. You don't get that defense of the right wingers in the mainstream media.

I also do not defend right wingers - anytime someone has presented an example of right wing violence, I have criticized it, and said they should be prosecuted and jailed. There is little else to say. When someone is harassing speakers or getting violent against them, then they should be arrested and jailed. Doesn't matter who. I don't qualify it, though, by saying that it's understandable due to their moral position that the right wingers extremists do what they do. There is no excuse, no matter how laudable their goal. Again, though, the left wingers get defense in the media, and even here, based on how they're really just the downtrodden trying to speak truth to power, or help the oppressed. You won't find an example of me defending right wingers harassing or being violent. I have defended their right to march down the street and protest and speak in public, sing songs, and carry signs, mostly sayin' hoo-ray for our side. Because, the left wing extremists not only will get violent against them (as the right wing will in similar circumstances also do), but the left wing does it under a claim of righteousness -- of moral rectitude. The right wing does it under a basic "fuck you, get out" attitude. They don't try to pretend that the people they attack are actually committing violence with their words.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Seabass » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:58 pm

The Texas serial bomber turned out to be a right-wing, homeschooled, anti-abortion, anti-gay religious wacko, but we should definitely be more concerned about SJWs.

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Hermit » Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:20 am

Forty Two wrote:But, you're missing the point, which is one ideology gets support in the media and the mainstream, and the other gets near universal opposition.
Feminism is only one example of brazen media bias, and possibly not even the worst. Look at how the media treat global warming denialists! It's outrageous I tells ya.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:40 am

Forty Two wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:Again, you've fallen to scapegoating a singled out ideology in the service of your own brand self-righteous moralising. The following could be said about the nasty end of the right as much as the left...
  • "So, they're violent. They're self-righteous moralizers. And, they add to that an incoherent and internally inconsistent ideology, which they believe despite its own absurdity. They have a fervor. A righteous ferver."
The question is, why is the ideology of the far-left singled out so keenly and so often, while you not only avoid criticising right-wing ideologues but defend them on the basis of their presumed moral equivalence with the far-left?

Let me reinstate my point so that you might address it head on: the problem (for most of us) is with the ideologies of ideologues, regardless of the bearing on their political compass.
The question is, why is the ideology of the far-left singled out so keenly [by Forty Two] and so often, while you [Forty Two] not only avoid criticising right wing ideologues, but defend them on the basis of presumed moral equivalence with the far left?

Good question, deserving of a straight answer, although I've partly answered this already.

One, I single out the far left for more comment and criticism because there is more of this lunacy coming from the far left. Every single day I see a new story about some speaker being harassed off the stange, windows being pounded on and broken, violent protests and threats, including people like college professors taking part in it.
This could just as easily be a result of the media you read. If you are reading lots of media that gets hysterical about this stuff, you certainly won't see as much news about right wings tools threatening to kill people while amassing an arsenal of weapons and bombs.
Two, there are allies in the media and in the general public among more moderate spheres that support this sort of thing. It's not resounding criticized and rebuked. It's defended, apologized for, and the critics of it are often called, by mainstream media outlets, haters, fascists, and other such nonsense.
I asked you to support this before. Can you support it with actual examples from the MSM?
Three, the difference is - and the reason I don't focus on the similar end of the right - is that there is not nearly as many iterations of idiocy coming out of the right - the right extremists are basically one-trick ponies - they're white Christian or Muslim extremists that hate jews, and/or blacks and/or gays etc - and they act accordingly - they scream and yell, and march and here and there they commit violence - but they don't give us new fodder all the time - they don't publish articles in academic journals explaining the oppression of the white people and blaming the matriarchy.
They don't publish articles as they are more often than not illiterate uneducated bogans!
They don't claim that discussion of black rights is a microaggression against them. They aren't taken seriously by anyone in the mainstream and their views are publicly denounced whenever it's an issue in the mainstream media. There are no defenders of them, except among their very small number of ilk -- if you're not marching with the Nazis, you're opposed to the Nazis. There aren't droves of people out there going, "you know what, those Nazis have a good point."
Maybe that's because they don't have a good point, while SJWs do have a point of some sort (whether it is "good" or not is probably dependent on how far out to the extreme they are; but the basis for some (many) of their concerns are legitimate).
But, when it's the leftists, you get sparce coverage, and each article is peppered with apologetics, trying to make the case why the protesters are really on the side of right.
Let's see some examples of this.
I also do not defend right wingers - anytime someone has presented an example of right wing violence, I have criticized it, and said they should be prosecuted and jailed. There is little else to say.
You could say they are as much if not more of a threat to society than the left.
Again, though, the left wingers get defense in the media, and even here, based on how they're really just the downtrodden trying to speak truth to power, or help the oppressed.
Maybe they are. Have you considered this?
You won't find an example of me defending right wingers harassing or being violent. I have defended their right to march down the street and protest and speak in public, sing songs, and carry signs, mostly sayin' hoo-ray for our side. Because, the left wing extremists not only will get violent against them (as the right wing will in similar circumstances also do), but the left wing does it under a claim of righteousness -- of moral rectitude. The right wing does it under a basic "fuck you, get out" attitude. They don't try to pretend that the people they attack are actually committing violence with their words.
That's right, because the people they attack are committing the crime of being black/lgbtqi/muslim/mexican/etc in public. There's plenty of moral rectitude behind their actions. It's ridiculous to suggest that there isn't.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:42 pm

The left thinks your spin class is too young, too thin, and too white. Very problematic. http://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyle ... story.html LOL. Something must be done about this.
"I did bond with some of the other students," says Rice. "But I did feel very isolated at times. There were no teachers of color. I didn't have another woman who looked like me, who understood my struggles, my insecurities."
Uh, is spin class or yoga where you need people to "understand" your struggles and insecurities? It's a fucking gym. I used to frequent gyms 4-5 days a week, when I was more fit. At no time did I ever expect that part of the service provided by the gym was someone to understand my struggles and insecurities.

Wasn't another woman who "looked like you?" Well, there wasn't another guy at the gym who looked like me either. I was easily recognizeable as distinct from the other members, even of the same skin tone.
"The messaging," says Stanley, "is essentially: You're allowed in this space if you are white, slender, able-bodied and less than 45, cis-gender and heterosexual. And if you're not, then you're not welcome."
What kind of places are these that are like this? The only thing I've ever seen at a gym is people trying to get fit and lose weight. That's what a gym is for. Nobody is told they're not welcome. Just because your demographic doesn't frequent the gym doesn't mean you're not welcome.

This whole article is pure narcissism.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:06 pm

pErvinalia wrote:
This could just as easily be a result of the media you read.
Could be, but isn't, because I read a wide variety of media, and I am especially careful to look to sources that lean left. It doesn't take long to see, if one searches, that there is a daily production of left wing lunacy. We are in a phase, and have been for several years now, where every, single aspect of western society, government, business and culture is at some point or another subjected to a serious article accusing it of being racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, xenophobic or other.

There is article, after article, after article, about leftists acting out in the way they did recently at Queens college - blocking doors - smashing beautiful stained glass windows, threatening, pounding, yelling profanities, commandeering the stage. These are not isolated. These events are legion.
pErvinalia wrote: If you are reading lots of media that gets hysterical about this stuff, you certainly won't see as much news about right wings tools threatening to kill people while amassing an arsenal of weapons and bombs.
I don't read lots of media that gets hysterical about this stuff. When I read a media report - and watch the unedited video -- of the event at Queens college, it's one of many such events -- weekly at least - where those asshats are doing the same thing.

You don't see as many news reports about right wing tools threatening to kill peole because there aren't as many such incidents. The media love to report such events, and are loathe to report the leftist events. Any right wing took threatening to kill while amassing arsenals of weapons gets reported for days on CNN, MSNBC etc. over and over again. The left wing violence gets muted in the major media, and is generally reported more on other written/online sources.

You don't see the right wing writing journal articles about how air conditioning is racist against whites, or how gyms in black neighborhoods don't have enough white people in them.
pErvinalia wrote:
Two, there are allies in the media and in the general public among more moderate spheres that support this sort of thing. It's not resounding criticized and rebuked. It's defended, apologized for, and the critics of it are often called, by mainstream media outlets, haters, fascists, and other such nonsense.
I asked you to support this before. Can you support it with actual examples from the MSM?
Yes, but I'm not going to until you give me the courtesy of backing up your statements in other threads where you refuse to do so because your mind is on other things, and the thread you commented in is too boring. I'll just answer the way you do - I've already presented this evidence in other threads, and I'm not going to be arsed to repeat myself. So fuck you.
pErvinalia wrote:
Three, the difference is - and the reason I don't focus on the similar end of the right - is that there is not nearly as many iterations of idiocy coming out of the right - the right extremists are basically one-trick ponies - they're white Christian or Muslim extremists that hate jews, and/or blacks and/or gays etc - and they act accordingly - they scream and yell, and march and here and there they commit violence - but they don't give us new fodder all the time - they don't publish articles in academic journals explaining the oppression of the white people and blaming the matriarchy.
They don't publish articles as they are more often than not illiterate uneducated bogans!
Takes one to know one.
pErvinalia wrote:
They don't claim that discussion of black rights is a microaggression against them. They aren't taken seriously by anyone in the mainstream and their views are publicly denounced whenever it's an issue in the mainstream media. There are no defenders of them, except among their very small number of ilk -- if you're not marching with the Nazis, you're opposed to the Nazis. There aren't droves of people out there going, "you know what, those Nazis have a good point."
Maybe that's because they don't have a good point, while SJWs do have a point of some sort (whether it is "good" or not is probably dependent on how far out to the extreme they are; but the basis for some (many) of their concerns are legitimate).
Right, the Nazis don't have a good point, but the SJWs don't have a good point either. They're absurd. What they have is a self-appointed claim of righteousness. And their ideologies are very harmful, which is why oppose them. But their ideologies are infecting many areas of society, successfully, so they are not irrelevant. They are very relevant.
pErvinalia wrote:
But, when it's the leftists, you get sparce coverage, and each article is peppered with apologetics, trying to make the case why the protesters are really on the side of right.
Let's see some examples of this.
Already provided on other threads. I also do not recognize your right to demand any explanation or support for my arguments. You have zero courtesy in that regard when other people ask you to do the same. So fuck off.
pErvinalia wrote:
I also do not defend right wingers - anytime someone has presented an example of right wing violence, I have criticized it, and said they should be prosecuted and jailed. There is little else to say.
You could say they are as much if not more of a threat to society than the left.
I could, but I would agree with that statement. The left is a far bigger threat, because of they are successfully effecting many areas of society and are being taken seriously. Of particular concern is colleges/universities, and in recent years, primary and secondary schools. They are infecting the schools with SJW ideology, white privilege nonsense, bullshit about patriarchy, and the notion that hate speech is not free speech, among other things. They are successfully infecting areas of society with an illiberal, self-righteous, leftist philosophy, sympathy for socialism, incoherent nonsense like intersectionalism, the Progressive Stack and a variety of other horrid ideas.
pErvinalia wrote:
Again, though, the left wingers get defense in the media, and even here, based on how they're really just the downtrodden trying to speak truth to power, or help the oppressed.
Maybe they are. Have you considered this?
I have, and they aren't. Have you considered that?
pErvinalia wrote:
You won't find an example of me defending right wingers harassing or being violent. I have defended their right to march down the street and protest and speak in public, sing songs, and carry signs, mostly sayin' hoo-ray for our side. Because, the left wing extremists not only will get violent against them (as the right wing will in similar circumstances also do), but the left wing does it under a claim of righteousness -- of moral rectitude. The right wing does it under a basic "fuck you, get out" attitude. They don't try to pretend that the people they attack are actually committing violence with their words.
That's right, because the people they attack are committing the crime of being black/lgbtqi/muslim/mexican/etc in public. There's plenty of moral rectitude behind their actions. It's ridiculous to suggest that there isn't.
There is no moral rectitude in attacking other people for ideas. I did not say that being black is not moral, dumbass. I said that what the left does when they become violent and hit people with bike locks, burn down stores, smash windows, threaten, commandeer stages, riot, pull fire alarms, barricade doors, and harass people, they do self-righteously. They do it claiming that the people they oppose are doing violence by speaking words and exchanging ideas. And, they don't just claim it of Nazis, they claim it of University of Toronto Professors, and feminist women like Christina Hoff Sommers. They say those people are committing violence and hatred because they oppose the arguments about the gender wage gap, and pronoun usage. So, it's o.k. to threaten them and do actual violence against them. That's why they could "morally" attack Charles Murray and a college professor who hosted his speech. Charles Murray's ideas in the Bell Curve are hate speech and violence, they say, so they are morally right in threatening and doing violence in "defense."

When that kind of thought process is infecting society, it becomes a significant danger. It's illiberal. Authoritarian. Arbitrary. Capricious. And, tantamount to vigilantism. And I don't give a flying fuck how good their cause is. The fact that they come forward with this crap under a claim of righteousness makes it worse. The worst form of totalitarian comes to silence people under a claim of righteousness, and a claim that they are acting for our own good.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:45 pm

You see 'the left' as a kind of contagion don't you?
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Scot Dutchy » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:48 pm

He only thinks he sees 'the left' as he has not got a clue what it is like.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:01 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:You see 'the left' as a kind of contagion don't you?
Nawww.... they're good people.

Image
Image

Image
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:19 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:You see 'the left' as a kind of contagion don't you?
Nawww.... they're good people.

Image
Image

Image
But what truly defines 'the left'? I know you've posted about the shortcomings of 'the left', at some length, but when it's boiled down is there any sort of fundamental core to 'the left' that you can point to, a singular bitter kernel, a dark knub, that you see sitting at the centre of that position?
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by JimC » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:52 pm

Those photos are of groups that are a very tiny minority of the left; 42 seems to want to make them representatives of the broad progressive left...
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Svartalf » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:58 pm

technically, some of the guys on these pics are avowed anarchists, which are not even part of the left/right spectrum
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by JimC » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:59 pm

And mainly in it for the adrenalin rush of a good punch-up...
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Svartalf » Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:08 pm

yeah, those yobs do need to get acquainted with the truncheon and learn their manners
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