Problematic Stuff

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Hermit » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:43 pm

Rum wrote:
DRSB wrote:
Svartalf wrote:Which is great when you see how the sheeple are still voting for a strongman dictator like Vlad Vladimirovich
This does not invalidate my point.
By the way, wasn't Hitler democratically elected too?
A bit of a myth this.
It's a myth if you insist that the definition of "democratically elected" requires a clear majority of the vote. If a plurality suffices, it is not a myth. In my opinion 44% of the vote, more than the three next biggest combined, is close enough to say Hitler was democratically elected.

According to Frederic Grunfeld Hitler said he would use democracy to destroy it. Apart from Grunfeld's The Hitler File: A Social History of Germany and the Nazis, 1918-45 I have seen no other source of Hitler saying that, so I am a bit dubious about the quote's veracity, but it does not matter. Germany fell into the NSDAP's, and therefore Hitler's hands because the democratic system made it possible.

On the 5th of March 1933, the day of the Weimar Republic's last free popular election, the NSDAP gained a plurality of parliamentary seats, (44% of the popular vote, 288 of the 647 seats - 36 short of a majority). Amending the Enabling Act (Ermächtigungsgesetz) 19 days later to give Hitler plenary powers was easy because the NSDAP only needed 36 votes from the several splinter groups still sitting in parliament to give it the majority of votes needed to push it through. At the next election, on the 12th November 1933, only one party fielded candidates. It won 661 out of a possible 661 seats.

That, by the way, is what unconditional tolerance can lead to.
  • If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. - K. R. Popper
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Brian Peacock » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:22 pm

As someone once said, Germany fell to the Nazis not because the German people were bad, but because they didn't have the courage to be good.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Rum » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:40 pm

Hermit makes a good point. Let's just say that the majority of Germans never voted for Hitler or his party. It is also fair to say that the majority didn't have the balls - or whatever - to resist him.

As I do every so often - I get a bee in my bonnet and track stuff down in a rather obsessive way. I spent a few years reading everything I could about the rise of the Far Right in Europe and then Hitler himself. I could probably have passed a Degree level paper on the subject!

Perhaps a thread in its own right.

As an aside, Hitler insisted the press told lies about him and his party..not to long before he shut them up for the duration. Echoes...

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Brian Peacock » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:48 pm

...choes ...chose ...chose
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Hermit » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:48 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:As someone once said, Germany fell to the Nazis not because the German people were bad, but because they didn't have the courage to be good.
Oh, how poetic. You couldn't have found something more Cheepak Dopraesque, could you?

The quote, by the way goes "You are right. He did not. But millions of Germans did betray their selves. That was the tragedy. Not that one man had the courage to be evil. But that millions had not the courage to be good." John Fowles has someone saying that in The Magus right after this clanger: "The human race is unimportant. It is the self that must not be betrayed" Chopra has made millions riffing on that sort of crap for decades.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Brian Peacock » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:00 pm

Hermit wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:As someone once said, Germany fell to the Nazis not because the German people were bad, but because they didn't have the courage to be good.
Oh, how poetic. You couldn't have found something more Cheepak Dopraesque, could you?
I was in a hurry. ;)
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Hermit » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:10 pm

Rum wrote:As an aside, Hitler insisted the press told lies about him and his party..not to long before he shut them up for the duration. Echoes...
Echoes indeed. In one single tweet Trump managed to appropriate "Lügenpresse" from Hitler and "enemy of the people" from Stalin.

Image

All he needs to do now, is to organise these supporters and beef them up,

Image

"improve" and spread South Carolina's election system,

and then he too will be the only candidate standing in a single-party election.

A Congress fire, or something like it, will help enormously. Steve Bannon would be just the man to organise one. He did fancy himself as Trump's Goering at one stage.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Rum » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:15 pm

Hermit wrote:
Rum wrote:As an aside, Hitler insisted the press told lies about him and his party..not to long before he shut them up for the duration. Echoes...
Echoes indeed. In one single tweet Trump managed to appropriate "Lügenpresse" from Hitler and "enemy of the people" from Stalin.

Image

All he needs to do now, is to organise these supporters and beef them up,

Image

"improve" and spread South Carolina's election system,

and then he too will be the only candidate standing in a single-party election.

A Congress fire, or something like it, will help enormously. Steve Bannon would be just the man to organise one. He did fancy himself as Trump's Goering at one stage.
Well you made my point for me.

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Seabass » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:22 pm

Comparisons of Trump to Hitler are unfair. Hitler wasn't fat, and his spelling and grammar were excellent.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Hermit » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:33 pm

Seabass wrote:Comparisons of Trump to Hitler are unfair. Hitler wasn't fat, and his spelling and grammar were excellent.
Yabbut how many pussies has Hitler grabbed?

Checkmate, fascist commie! :razzle:
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by NineBerry » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:37 pm

Hitler preferred dogs to cats

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by JimC » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:54 pm

NineBerry wrote:Hitler preferred dogs to cats
A cat person would never invade Poland...
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Brian Peacock » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:54 pm

Interesting medium-read in The Guardian from Matthew d'Ancona: Banning people like Jordan Peterson from causing offence – that’s the road to dystopia.
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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:18 am

That article is full of trite rhetoric and logical fallacies. Basically, 42 could have written it. The one in the last paragraph was the easiest to copy pasta:
Unless you believe that history has a self-evident direction – and it really doesn’t – you must accept that almost all progress is achieved by the hard grind of negotiation, tough debate and busy pluralism.
Nice non-sequitur.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by DRSB » Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:39 am

Brian Peacock wrote:As someone once said, Germany fell to the Nazis not because the German people were bad, but because they didn't have the courage to be good.
Hitler did no do Holocaust all by himself, it is the Volk der Dichter und Denker that helped him.

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