Bernie Sanders

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Re: Bernie Sanders

Post by Forty Two » Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:15 pm

Seth wrote: In fact, tax avoidance is a civil right.
Avoiding taxes is common sense and ever persons right. Tax "evasion" on the other hand is a crime.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Bernie Sanders

Post by rachelbean » Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:26 pm

Forty Two wrote:The taxes worldwide income, but doesn't it only actually impose the tax if your income is not taxed by another authority? Meaning -- you don't actually pay US tax. You just have to file, declare the income, note the tax paid in the UK, and then they don't tax you? It's a question - I'm genuinely not clear on it. I hate taxes and the US tax system. It's a nightmare.
As of now, yes. I have to file but won't owe anything on my money earned because there is an exclusion up to $100,800 and I'm not likely to make that over here, but once you have over $10,000 in any amount of accounts including retirement funds then you also have to file an FBAR and give extensive financial information (bank account details), and possibly pay additional tax. I have paid money to have my taxes filed for the last few years but I'm going to see if I can do it myself this year, I always did when I lived in the US. I think I may have been throwing money away because it doesn't look too complicated now that I'm looking into it :ask:

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Re: Bernie Sanders

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:49 pm

Forty Two wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:Obviously GDP isn't the definitive measure of how well off people are. Ironically, though, it's usually progressives who have to point that out to economic liberals, not the other way round.
Nobody thinks it is a definitive measure of how well off people are. It's a measure of how productive a country is, and in that regard it is not all that useful, since counting borrowed money paid out by the government as part of GDP is rather unreflective of GDP.

But, the point we were discussing is whether it's a tax increase for GDP to go down. No, it isn't.
rEvolutionist wrote:
As I said above, GDP is a reasonable measure of the prosperity of a country. The higher the GDP the higher the revenue the gov has to spend on stuff.
Perhaps in a rough sense, because higher GDPs would mean higher sales and a country with a Value Added Tax might collect more tax, and companies that sell more tend to have more income and therefore would probably pay more in tax. I never said it wasn't an indicator -- it is, it's a metric/measurement.
rEvolutionist wrote:
If it spends it on military, then that's obviously not so good for the people. But if it spends a good whack of it on social services, then the average person benefits.
Military spending is not "obviously not so good for people." In a world with competing nations with military forces and the potential for wars, military spending may be of the utmost benefit to people, protecting their lives and livelihoods.

Social services are certainly a benefit to the people who receive them, and to society as a whole which benefits from being relieved of greater expected problems if people fall too low. However, this is not black and white either, and too much in the way of social services can restrain economic growth and overall prosperity of the "average person." Certainly, putting the bulk of society on welfare is not a benefit to society at large or the "average person."

I am not against welfare for the poor. But, it's not a panacea. Nothing is. And, it's not black and white -- more social services or social welfare does not equal "better."
I wasn't talking about welfare. I was talking about general government services like health, education, infrastructure etc.
Have you read Hayek's "Road to Serfdom?" I recommend it. Don't ignore it because it may be among the authors/thinkers that you oppose (that should be all the more reason to read him, not a reason to hand wave him away). Before you give me an anti-libertarian speech, note that Hayek wrote, in Law, Legislation and Liberty (volume 3) The Political Order of a Free People, and his Autobiographical Dialog that he supports a guaranteed minimum income for everyone. "The assurance of a guaranteed minimum income for everyone or a sort of floor below which nobody need fall even when he is unable to provide for himself appears to be not only a legitimate protection against a risk common to all but a necessary part of the Great Society in which the individual no longer has specific claims on the members of the particular small group into which he was born. " He refers after that to the reaction of people who have found themselves without help when, through no fault of their own, they find their capacity to earn a living has ceased. He points out, though, that "it is unfortunate that the endeavor to provide a uniform minimum for all who cannot provide for themselves has become connected with the wholly different aims of securing a "just" distributionf of incomes....." Vol. 3, Law Legislation and Liberty, page 54-56.
Interesting. I haven't read it. I have "Individualism and Economic Order", but haven't found the will power to read it yet.
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Re: Bernie Sanders

Post by laklak » Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:03 pm

rachelbean wrote:I have paid money to have my taxes filed for the last few years but I'm going to see if I can do it myself this year, I always did when I lived in the US. I think I may have been throwing money away because it doesn't look too complicated now that I'm looking into it :ask:
I did my own for many years, as long as you don't have significant income in the U.S. it's pretty easy. We have to do the foreign bank account thing, so we just drew the accounts down to under 10Gs each. It ain't easy to get away from Uncle Sam, but unless there's an overriding financial reason I wouldn't renounce U.S. citizenship. Mrs. Lak has both, which means we could move back to the UK any time with minimal paperwork to get me in. You never know what the future will bring.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: Bernie Sanders

Post by Tero » Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:04 pm

The purpose of the filing of US tax or two taxes is to add up your two incomes. Say you make 40 000 in the US and 40 000 in the UK. In each country you would end up in a low tax bracket. However, since you make 80 000, you would end up paying tax on the 40 000 you make in each country but at the % RATE of people earning 80 000.
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Re: Bernie Sanders

Post by Forty Two » Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:06 pm

rachelbean wrote:
Forty Two wrote:The taxes worldwide income, but doesn't it only actually impose the tax if your income is not taxed by another authority? Meaning -- you don't actually pay US tax. You just have to file, declare the income, note the tax paid in the UK, and then they don't tax you? It's a question - I'm genuinely not clear on it. I hate taxes and the US tax system. It's a nightmare.
As of now, yes. I have to file but won't owe anything on my money earned because there is an exclusion up to $100,800 and I'm not likely to make that over here, but once you have over $10,000 in any amount of accounts including retirement funds then you also have to file an FBAR and give extensive financial information (bank account details), and possibly pay additional tax. I have paid money to have my taxes filed for the last few years but I'm going to see if I can do it myself this year, I always did when I lived in the US. I think I may have been throwing money away because it doesn't look too complicated now that I'm looking into it :ask:

https://www.irs.gov/Individuals/Interna ... ens-Abroad
Just use Turbotax. You can do it yourself easy.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Bernie Sanders

Post by laklak » Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:32 pm

Tero wrote:The purpose of the filing of US tax or two taxes is to add up your two incomes. Say you make 40 000 in the US and 40 000 in the UK. In each country you would end up in a low tax bracket. However, since you make 80 000, you would end up paying tax on the 40 000 you make in each country but at the % RATE of people earning 80 000.
True, but not at those income levels. The UK doesn't charge tax on overseas income, and in the U.S. you get an exclusion. Used to be about 90K but Rachel said it was up to $100K. You take the 100K off your income, then use all the other deductions on the remainder. Basically, to pay tax in the U.S. on foreign earnings you have to make a lot of money.
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Re: Bernie Sanders

Post by Seth » Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:54 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Your situation sucks, but good luck. The sucky part of giving up US citizenship is losing your US passport. Then coming back to the US is on Visa Waiver and you have 90 day limits and such, and if you ever wanted to come back long term, you'd have to get a nonimmigrant visa on some basis or a green card. Sucks.
Um, Rach, you might well not be permitted back into the US at all, ever. After all, you aren't a person born somewhere else who wants to visit or even legally immigrate to the US, you are a person who was, by birth, a full-fledged US citizen who repudiated the US and what it stands for by renouncing your citizenship.

We, meaning the People of the United States are under absolutely no obligation to allow any alien lawful entry, for any reason or no reason at all, and a former US citizen who has insulted us all and everything we believe in by throwing the gift of citizenship back in our faces is simply not welcome here, at all, ever. If you make your bed by renouncing citizenship, then you have to lie in it. You will have utterly forfeited any right to enjoy anything the US has to offer, even as a guest, forever, even as a corpse.

You want out? Then get out and stay out. That's your right. And it's our right to keep you out.

You might want to consider your choices a bit more carefully before you make such an irrevocable decision. Citizenship is not something that you get to toy with at your whim and caprice because you're mad about something and later change your mind, and that is true of almost every country.
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Re: Bernie Sanders

Post by Seth » Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:02 pm

laklak wrote:
rachelbean wrote:I have paid money to have my taxes filed for the last few years but I'm going to see if I can do it myself this year, I always did when I lived in the US. I think I may have been throwing money away because it doesn't look too complicated now that I'm looking into it :ask:
I did my own for many years, as long as you don't have significant income in the U.S. it's pretty easy. We have to do the foreign bank account thing, so we just drew the accounts down to under 10Gs each. It ain't easy to get away from Uncle Sam, but unless there's an overriding financial reason I wouldn't renounce U.S. citizenship. Mrs. Lak has both, which means we could move back to the UK any time with minimal paperwork to get me in. You never know what the future will bring.
Gotta be careful there Lak. If you create multiple accounts and intentionally keep them under the amount that triggers reporting the feds will nail you for "structuring," which is the crime of structuring your finances and transactions in such a manner as to avoid FinCen reporting requirements...like by always taking out or depositing slightly less than $10,000 on a regular basis to avoid the FinCen trigger. You can be charged with "structuring" completely inadvertently, as a man found out when the feds seized all his bank accounts because he ran a cash-based market that happened to generate around $9000 a week in cash deposits. The banks are REQUIRED by law to report "suspicious" transactions over $5000 that might be structuring to the feds, and they are PROHIBITED by federal law from telling you they are doing this.

Took this guy years to get his money back and the feds tried to put him in prison even though his "structuring" was entirely happenstantial and innocent.

Those fuckers WILL do you up the ass if they can, so be careful, use cash, and stay away from banks, including foreign banks, whom the IRS are actively surveilling.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Bernie Sanders

Post by laklak » Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:20 pm

@Rachel - FBAR requirements are a bit of a mess. It's been a few years since I dealt with overseas income, but IIRC it all comes under the same umbrella as ordinary income, meaning it's subject to the annual $100K (or so) deduction. If you had ordinary checking or savings accounts that you funded yourself with money you already reported (and perhaps paid tax on, if you went over the deduction limits), then the only bit you'd need to report as income is any interest accrued. That's the same as any account int he U.S., you must declare the interest income for tax purposes, but the principle is not included as taxable income.

If the retirement account is fully or partially funded by your employer, and your employer is a private company (IOW this isn't a government pension account, which are generally NOT subject to FBAR), then it's possible you might need to include the amount they contributed in your total income. Again, that would be subject to the foreign resident deduction.

Before you renounce U.S. citizenship, which is an irrevocable action and can cause you a lot of headaches later on, it's best to talk to a good accountant with experience in these matters. I think you'll find that it isn't as bad as it sounds, and the hassle is really just a bit of paperwork.
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Re: Bernie Sanders

Post by rachelbean » Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:02 pm

Thanks lak, I think you are right :cheers:

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Re: Bernie Sanders

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:56 am

laklak wrote:
rachelbean wrote:I have paid money to have my taxes filed for the last few years but I'm going to see if I can do it myself this year, I always did when I lived in the US. I think I may have been throwing money away because it doesn't look too complicated now that I'm looking into it :ask:
I did my own for many years, as long as you don't have significant income in the U.S. it's pretty easy. We have to do the foreign bank account thing, so we just drew the accounts down to under 10Gs each. It ain't easy to get away from Uncle Sam, but unless there's an overriding financial reason I wouldn't renounce U.S. citizenship. Mrs. Lak has both, which means we could move back to the UK any time with minimal paperwork to get me in. You never know what the future will bring.
THE BERN!!! :hehe:
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Re: Bernie Sanders

Post by Forty Two » Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:18 pm

Image
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Bernie Sanders

Post by Hermit » Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:53 am

Forty Two wrote:Image
Well done, Coito. Another masterpiece of quote mining.
So you talk about mobs and the working classes as if they were the question. You've got that eternal idiotic idea that if anarchy came it would come from the poor. Why should it? The poor have been rebels, but they have never been anarchists; they have more interest than anyone else in there being some decent government. The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all. Aristocrats were always anarchists. - G.K. Chesterton

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Re: Bernie Sanders

Post by JimC » Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:24 am

This will puzzle some rigid left-wing feminists...
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