Suicide

[charlou]

Compassionate euthanasia aside, I think I have quite a different objective philosophy (as distinct from personal feelings) about suicide to most people .. certainly those whose opinions I've heard .. insofaras I'm not precious about it really, and not least because suicide is a way to have some control over the inevitable ... and might be particularly pragmatic to undertake when one is still in a position to make it happen.

For most of us, the tragedy of death is the loss of someone we care about, perhaps deeply, even intimately .. or just remotely .. but that is our emotion, our loss, our grief .. not theirs, for they are gone.

But I think another tragedy is that people who want to die must resort to methods that may not be painless and quick ... or worse, in cases of unsuccessful attempts or intervention, may leave the person alive but suffering or disabled in some way.

I fully appreciate why we don't want to make suicide more accessible or easier, and I'm not advocating that we do because I too feel a strong sense of loss and grief at the very thought of someone I care about ending their own life. But I'd feel those things no matter how the person died. And I think my feelings about it are selfish, despite the fact that I'm feeling them for someone else.

I think suicide triggers other emotions that have an even greater influence on how we think about it. Emotions like a sense of responsibility or guilt, that are understandable but not usually fair or reasonable. And emotions about our own physical or mental vulnerability, and our finite time alive which we don't want to be reminded of. And a range of feelings towards the person who has died, for what they have done, to themselves, and to those who miss them.

Not sure where that takes me ... I think pretty much non-judgemental about those who end their lives, and those who care about it.

Any solution that imposes some kind of disregard or repression of emotions that people experience in relation to suicidal death wouldn't be healthy, but I think some of those emotions themselves are not very useful either.


I was going to post this in the thread about Stephen Fry's attempted suicide, but thought a separate topic here would be better.

[Jason]

In many cultures suicide carries a lot of shame with it as well, but depending on the context it may be acceptable. Judaism takes a dim view of suicide. In Islam it is put pretty bluntly: "And do not kill yourselves, surely God is most Merciful to you". In Christianity it used to be a mortal sin, but still carries a strong stigma today.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

There is a huge difference between a physically healthy person committing suicide due to mental health / emotional problems and someone with a terminal illness that wishes to end it all painlessly and with as much dignity as possible.

The former need counselling, treatment and basically talking out of ending it all. The latter deserve to have compassionate aid in their endeavour.

I quite agree that the means of painless suicide should not be made universally easy to obtain (or, at least, no easier than they currently are), however, given proper safeguards, they should be available to those with no other recourse except to wait for a painful and humiliating death.

[Audley Strange]

I don't think we need to consider it something shameful, but as the thing about Stephen Fry points out he's prone to bouts of mania and depression which is a condition that can be observed and treated. We need to first differentiate those who have the long term reasoned will to die rather than the overwhelming whim to because of an acute depletion of neuro-chemicals or a really shit couple of months.

I tend to think that the latter possibly accounts for most at least outside of the elderly (which is something we don't often discuss) so I'm squeamish about saying "it's their choice". There are also considerations of their responsibility to others to take into consideration as well.

As such I think it would end up a case by case basis minefield.

[charlou]

XC ... Chronic mental health problems that affect quality of life are on a par with physical suffering, I think.

[SteveB]

I figured if I were to ever kill myself I would hang myself using the standard drop method.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanging#Standard_drop
Your neck breaks and you die instantly and most everyone can make a noose and tie it around a thick branch or beam. Much easier than like buying a gun and shooting yourself.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

XC ... Chronic mental health problems that affect quality of life are on a par with physical suffering, I think.

Agreed. And if they can't be treated, they equate to any other chronic illness. However, they usually can to some degree - at least to the point that there is sufficient quality of life that the person no longer wishes to kill themself.

[pErvinalia]

bookmarking. i'll get to this thread eventually.

[Seth]

The deeper philosophical question that RiverF opens is upon what basis does society, or other individuals, presume to interfere in the sovereign decisionmaking of the individual about the course, or end of his life?

Religious objections are usually based in a "Lèse-majesté" rationale that presumes that the individual is the servant or vassal of the controlling power of society, be it a God, a Marxist directorate, an elected body or merely one's superior at work.

The fundamental assumption in all anti-suicide beliefs is the implicit assumption that the individual has a duty to society to survive. The question we have to ask then is why does a person have a duty to survive? Most often it's because the assumption is that the individual owes a duty of labor to the society of some kind or other, and that the collective would suffer if it permitted anyone who wanted to exit the society, either through emigration or suicide, to just leave.

This thought pattern is pervasive, right down to the family level, where the second most often heard question after "why did he do it" is "how could he be so selfish?", as if his life was the chattel of others.

This is why I maintain that suicide is the ultimate freedom and the right to commit suicide unopposed and uninterfered with is the most basic and fundamental human right anyone can have, and that any society that presumes to interfere with that decision is axiomatically acting not in the interests of the individual, but in the interests of everyone else to the detriment of the individual.

[Seth]

I figured if I were to ever kill myself I would hang myself using the standard drop method.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanging#Standard_drop
Your neck breaks and you die instantly and most everyone can make a noose and tie it around a thick branch or beam. Much easier than like buying a gun and shooting yourself.

On the other hand, "autoerotic death," which is usually mischaracterized by the media as "the choking game" when it involves youngsters doesn't appear to be a bad way to go at all, because you have an orgasm then become unconscious and then die.

Contrary to what the press tells you, "the choking game" is not about "getting high," it's about sexual stimulation, and such deaths are almost always incorrectly reported as suicides when they are in fact accidental deaths. I learned this decades ago during my homicide investigation training.

The reason it's reported as suicide is because many coroners and police officials want to spare the family the "pain" of realizing that their child was engaging in a dangerous sexual practice intended to increase the intensity of orgasm.

But if you want to go, that's the way to do it. Tie a noose to the closet rod (the most common place), make it just short enough that you're on the razor's edge of asphyxiation when sitting on the floor with tense buttocks, then start masturbating. When you come, relax just a little and you'll go out like a light and be dead three minutes later.

The reason to do this is that if you're insured, suicide may not be covered, but an accidental auto-erotic death will be, since it's an accidental death, and your heirs will get the insurance money. Which is why you want to leave plenty of evidence around that it is an autoerotic death...like spooge, sex toys, being naked, etc.

I remember having a similar conversation about Tigger some time ago in re autoerotic death versus suicide.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

The deeper philosophical question that RiverF opens is upon what basis does society, or other individuals, presume to interfere in the sovereign decisionmaking of the individual about the course, or end of his life?

Religious objections are usually based in a "Lèse-majesté" rationale that presumes that the individual is the servant or vassal of the controlling power of society, be it a God, a Marxist directorate, an elected body or merely one's superior at work.

The fundamental assumption in all anti-suicide beliefs is the implicit assumption that the individual has a duty to society to survive. The question we have to ask then is why does a person have a duty to survive? Most often it's because the assumption is that the individual owes a duty of labor to the society of some kind or other, and that the collective would suffer if it permitted anyone who wanted to exit the society, either through emigration or suicide, to just leave.

This thought pattern is pervasive, right down to the family level, where the second most often heard question after "why did he do it" is "how could he be so selfish?", as if his life was the chattel of others.

This is why I maintain that suicide is the ultimate freedom and the right to commit suicide unopposed and uninterfered with is the most basic and fundamental human right anyone can have, and that any society that presumes to interfere with that decision is axiomatically acting not in the interests of the individual, but in the interests of everyone else to the detriment of the individual.

You lose that right when you become so infirm that you can no longer take any life-ending action unilaterally and have to rely on others to do it for you. What then? DO you support or oppose assisted suicide in such circumstances?

[cronus]

Why should 'a whim' prevent a ethical suicide with so much over-population being a product of a whim also?

[Tyrannical]

In some Eskimo societies, suicide was expected when you became a burden.

[SteveB]

Inuit, friendo.

[Rum]

Personally I believe I 'own' my own life and if I want to end it at any time that is up to me. If I were suffering mental health issues which needed attention I would hope to get help with them of course first.

One thing however that we have not touched on I don't think is the impact on those around the person who has killed themselves. I have known a number of people, including a couple of good friends whose close family have killed themselves leaving their relations and friends confused, puzzled and feeling guilty and angry. Some of those have experienced the suicide almost as an 'assault' on themselves, however unjustified a reaction that might seem.