Some questions about democracy

[Audley Strange]

Since democracy representative or otherwise implies a rule by the people, which people should be chosen?

Why do we not allow children to vote from the age of literacy? We could make them pass a little "citizen" test and if they pass it give them a voting card.

If that's too much how about reducing the voting age, or even increasing it?

Should those who have willfully never contributed to the state be allowed to influence it?

I feel the process has been generally aiming towards more rather than less people being allowed to vote. Is that a good thing?

Is 4/5 years too short a term or too long?

[JimC]

I think we need to be very careful when placing restrictions on who can vote. It would be too easy for entrenched political interests to manipulate any chosen criteria to their advantage. We have moved away from restrictions based on sex and property ownership, and a good thing too...

As far as age goes, certainly some will be mature enough to vote at 16, some not till 21. But a blanket, compromise "age of first voting" is the only realistic, workable solution, IMO, whether it be 18 or otherwise.

I think that the whole area of cash contributions to candidates or parties is the biggest current distorting factor in western democracy - it allows money to talk far too easily...

[pErvinalia]

Yep. $1:1vote instead of 1person:1vote is the problem.

[Svartalf]

Democracy can't work correctly, too many idiots in the system, and corruptibility is ingrained in human nature.

As for age... I know that I sorely regret some of the votes I cast between 18 and 22... I even went through a period of strict abstentionism so disgusted was I, and while I'm back at the polling station as of the last 2 decades, I cast some of those in utter disgust and in an attempt to avoid the worst. (that doesn't even always work, leaving me with double the bitter taste)

[pErvinalia]

I think one of the most critical things for a democracy to work is an educated populace and a free and independent media.

[Svartalf]

Our populace is as educated as ever has been in human history, and we have as free media as can be, yet, does Western democracy work well?

[JimC]

I think one of the most critical things for a democracy to work is an educated populace and a free and independent media.

And politicians that don't fill most of the population with cynical disgust at their behaviour and shallow posturing...

[pErvinalia]

Our populace is as educated as ever has been in human history, and we have as free media as can be, yet, does Western democracy work well?

Well, it's not that simplistic, I think. While our "levels of education" are high, what disciplines are they high in? How are our critical thinking skills? Analytical skills? Science is waning as a preferred study stream. Being well educated in neo-classical economics is more than likely to mess your mind and critical thinking skills up than improve them.

Regarding media, respectfully, bullshit. The mainstream media is in a terrible state of independence and quality. The one saving grace is the internet, as it's pretty much classless (in the west, at least) and 'freely' available. The problem is that with an increase in good information on the net has come an increase in shit information. It takes critical thinking skills to separate out the good from the rubbish.

[pErvinalia]

I think one of the most critical things for a democracy to work is an educated populace and a free and independent media.

And politicians that don't fill most of the population with cynical disgust at their behaviour and shallow posturing...

The thing is that they obviously don't when it comes down to it. As much as politicians are disliked and distrusted, when it comes down to it we keep voting in the same shower of bastards (with a slight variation) every time. And of course, this is largely the problem of a shit media and a capitalist society that rewards cheap entertainment over complex analysis.

[FBM]

Why do we not allow children to vote from the age of literacy?

Because even literate children are still to ignorant to figure out whether or not how momma and daddy tell you to vote is right.

We could make them pass a little "citizen" test and if they pass it give them a voting card.

"You must be THIS smart to vote in this election." Not bad.

[John_fi_Skye]

Democracy my arse. It's a sham. Typically in a UK general election, one party will win a substantial overall majority in parliament by gaining 40% of the popular vote. And to see the value of a popular vote you've only got to look at some of the dross people watch and vote for in "reality" or "talent" TV shows - especially the "celebrity" ones, in which people with little or no talent are lauded as wonderful, and votes are cast in their millions to endorse such opinions. And our media certainly aren't free: they may be free of government control, but they're very firmly under editorial control, and editors are paid by and accountable to owners.

But because democracy is thought to be "a good thing", we just get more and more and more of it. As I've posted before, we should elect two levels of representatives: one to run local services like bin collection, and one to run national services like the health service. That's all we need. Whereas I and all those morons who vote for people to be evicted from the Big Brother House, and all those morons who voted either way last year to decide whether a performing dog was the most talented Briton, get to vote for the local authority, and for the Scottish parliament in Edinburgh, and for the UK parliament in London, and for the European parliament in Brussels. Four levels! What for? So that instead of just deciding who's best at running our bin collection and our health service effectively and efficiently, we get lost in alleged debate which for some unaccountable reason requires people to split up into parties, and if you're in Party X you just of course have to oppose anything Party Y ever says. And if Party X is in power at a level which decides on the allocation of money to the level below in which Party Y is in power, the two parties can just endlessly blame each other for the fact that services aren't operating well. If we just had fewer fucking levels, we'd save politicians' salaries and expenses, as well as all the money we spend on their secretaries, civil servants, speech writers, spin doctors and all the rest. And then we'd be able to use the money we've saved, to improve the services the politicians should be running for us.

And again because democracy's such a "good thing", we have to extend it to electing mayors, and electing the individuals who oversee each police force, and if we do away with the monarchy we'll have to elect a fucking president! May I have died of alcoholic poisoning before I ever see the day!

And may all those turkeys I've been referring to vote for the best Christmas gift ever: the wholesale reduction in their own numbers! Wait a minute! What's that fat pink thing up in the sky there? It's a fucking pig!

[Svartalf]

I believe in direct democracy, run by the retired old farts sages who have the leisure to devote themselves to public affairs, and will mind the need of the young who labor to pay off their pensions.

[Audley Strange]

I think we need to be very careful when placing restrictions on who can vote. It would be too easy for entrenched political interests to manipulate any chosen criteria to their advantage. We have moved away from restrictions based on sex and property ownership, and a good thing too...

As far as age goes, certainly some will be mature enough to vote at 16, some not till 21. But a blanket, compromise "age of first voting" is the only realistic, workable solution, IMO, whether it be 18 or otherwise.

I think that the whole area of cash contributions to candidates or parties is the biggest current distorting factor in western democracy - it allows money to talk far too easily...

Yes we have, however there are complete fucking zoomers out there who are adults, I know people in their fifites and even seventies that I would not trust to tie a shoelace. So why is it an age restriction? Why not an education restriction, if it really is about making sure voters are "informed" voters.

I agree that "donations" come out as little more than bribery, but I'll be fucked if I'm paying taxes in order to sustain them, so what solutions could we come up with for that?

Yep. $1:1vote instead of 1person:1vote is the problem.

I see that, but would point out that we do still actually have one vote per person. The plutocrats and other fuckwits might think they run the show, but it only takes a disgruntled populace once to completely re-do that. But yes invested interests are a problem.

Democracy can't work correctly, too many idiots in the system, and corruptibility is ingrained in human nature.

As for age... I know that I sorely regret some of the votes I cast between 18 and 22... I even went through a period of strict abstentionism so disgusted was I, and while I'm back at the polling station as of the last 2 decades, I cast some of those in utter disgust and in an attempt to avoid the worst. (that doesn't even always work, leaving me with double the bitter taste)

Democracy is like a run-down taxi cab, sure we'd all prefer our own cars and you don't know if the cab you are hailing is going to take you home or chop you up into fuck cutlets, but it's still better than walking, apparently. I don't vote, not because I am anti-democratic, but because I cannot bring myself to perpetuate a system I know is so deeply flawed, when all the parties wish to keep the system not for the countries benefit but for their own organisation.

It's why I chucked being a labour canvasser and a Union Rep. I'd go so far to say our current system is actually now so old it is a hinderence to us. So I have some sympathy.

Why do we not allow children to vote from the age of literacy?

Because even literate children are still to ignorant to figure out whether or not how momma and daddy tell you to vote is right.

What you mean like most adults? There are very few people who do not vote traditionally even often against their own best interests.

We could make them pass a little "citizen" test and if they pass it give them a voting card.

"You must be THIS smart to vote in this election." Not bad. [/quote]

Exactly, why should that be dependent on age?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Earn the right to vote and hold office.

[Svartalf]

Fuck heinlein.