War

[Hermit]

We in Australia and New Zealand are commemorating our involvement in them today. We call it ANZAC day. The last two letters of the acronym stand for "and Canada" but I don't know if Canadians have a similar holiday.

We arrived in Gallipoli in 1915 under British command and were beaten with heavy losses on all sides. In 1933 the president of Turkey said:

"Heroes who shed their blood and lost their lives! You are now lying in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and Mehmets to us where they lie side by side here in this country of ours. You, the mothers, who sent their sons from far away countries wipe away your tears; your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace. After having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well." - Mustafa Kemal Atatürk

If you have family who took part in any of the world wars and told you about it, you'll most likely know exactly what Atatürk meant. I do. Both my grandfathers were dutiful officers throughout the entire length of them as officers, and my father finished up as a 21 year old lieutenant when he was taken prisoner by the Americans a month or two before the end of WWII. All of them realised they felt duty-bound to kill fellow humans for reasons that can only be described as absurd by sane ones.

The quote above was from 1933. It's from the same man, who as a front line commander at Gallipoli said: "Men, I am not ordering you to attack. I am ordering you to die. In the time that it takes us to die, other forces and commanders can come and take our place." (Orders to the 57th Infantry Regiment, at the Battle of Gallipoli, 25 April 1915)

And some people have no idea why I loathe and hate nationalism as well as its kin, patriotism. When will it be realised that the soldiers who do the killing have more in common with the people they are sent out to kill than those who they do the killing on behalf of?

What's your take on this?

[Thinking Aloud]

Gets me every time I hear it.

Trigger Warning!!!1! :

(This is a recording from the 1980s by a folk group called "Ushers Well".)

"And The Band Played Waltzing Matilda"
- Eric Bogle

Now when I was a young man, I carried me pack, and I lived the free life of a rover
From the Murray's green basin to the dusty outback, well, I waltzed my Matilda all over.
Then in 1915, my country said son, It's time you stopped rambling, there's work to be done.
So they gave me a tin hat, and they gave me a gun, and they marched me away to the war.

And the band played Waltzing Matilda, as the ship pulled away from the quay
And amidst all the cheers, the flag-waving and tears, we sailed off for Gallipoli
And how well I remember that terrible day, how our blood stained the sand and the water
And of how in that hell that they called Suvla Bay, we were butchered like lambs at the slaughter.
Johnny Turk he was waiting, he'd primed himself well. He shower'd us with bullets,
And he rained us with shell. And in five minutes flat, he'd blown us all to hell
Nearly blew us right back to Australia.

But the band played Waltzing Matilda, when we stopped to bury our slain.
We buried ours, and the Turks buried theirs, then we started all over again.
And those that were left, well we tried to survive, in that mad world of blood, death and fire
And for ten weary weeks, I kept myself alive, though around me the corpses piled higher
Then a big Turkish shell knocked me arse over head, and when I woke up in my hospital bed,
And saw what it had done, well I wished I was dead. Never knew there was worse things than dyin'.

For I'll go no more waltzing Matilda, all around the green bush far and free
To hump tent and pegs, a man needs both legs-no more waltzing Matilda for me.
So they gathered the crippled, the wounded, the maimed, and they shipped us back home to Australia.
The legless, the armless, the blind, the insane, those proud wounded heroes of Suvla
And as our ship pulled into Circular Quay, I looked at the place where me legs used to be.
And thanked God there was nobody waiting for me, to grieve, to mourn, and to pity.

But the band played Waltzing Matilda, as they carried us down the gangway.
But nobody cheered, they just stood and stared, then they turned all their faces away
And so now every April, I sit on me porch, and I watch the parades pass before me.
And I see my old comrades, how proudly they march, reviving old dreams of past glories
And the old men march slowly, old bones stiff and sore. They're tired old heroes from a forgotten war
And the young people ask, what are they marching for? And I ask myself the same question.

But the band plays Waltzing Matilda, and the old men still answer the call,
But as year follows year, more old men disappear. Someday no one will march there at all.

Waltzing Matilda, Waltzing Matilda, who'll come a-waltzing Matilda with me?
And their ghosts may be heard as they march by that billabong, who'll come a-waltzing Matilda with me?

[Rum]

It is an unspeakable evil Seraph and I agree with every word.

Although the Europe projects has many faults I am a huge supporter because it has done much to erode borders and nationalism. Brobably not enough, but a lot.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'm not a combat veteran. I was a firefighter in the US Air Force. Wars suck, and especially so for those who do the killing and dying at the behest of flag-waving assholes who would wilt at the thought of basic training, much less a life-or-death situation.

[Atheist-Lite]

Strange as it may sound but Crumple is very anti-war. Can you imagine how much work it takes to sort out the paperwork afterwards?

[Blind groper]

To Seraph

Hate to correct you, but ANZAC stands for Australian and New Zealand Army Corps. Because it was that group that, on the behest of incompetent British generals, went to die at Gallipoli.

Of course, the commemoration has now been extended to represent everyone who fought overseas in whatever war who came from Oz or NZ.

My father was a veteran in WWII, and served with distinction, winning the Military Medal and bar, and MID twice. After his return, he settled down as a farmer, husband and father, and passed on to me, his son, a hatred of war.

[Hermit]

Hate to correct you, but ANZAC stands for Australian and New Zealand Army Corps.

Thanks, and don't hate it. I am always happy to be corrected. As a matter of fact, I pasted the opening post at MindRomp a few days ago as well - replete with the same mistake - and corrected myself earlier today, but forgot to do the same here, probably because the discussion is a lot more alive over there. It's clocked up 44 posts while this one has seven in the same time once I hit the "post bollocks" button.

[Thumpalumpacus]

To Seraph

Hate to correct you, but ANZAC stands for Australian and New Zealand Army Corps. Because it was that group that, on the behest of incompetent British generals, went to die at Gallipoli.

Of course, the commemoration has now been extended to represent everyone who fought overseas in whatever war who came from Oz or NZ.

My father was a veteran in WWII, and served with distinction, winning the Military Medal and bar, and MID twice. After his return, he settled down as a farmer, husband and father, and passed on to me, his son, a hatred of war.

Were they not called "ANZAC" in the Second World War as well? I had always thought that they were, in North Africa at least.

And respects to your father.

[Blind groper]

Thumpa

Like lots of words, usage changes the meaning. ANZAC has changed its meaning to include any Australian and NZ military group serving overseas.

Thanks for your respects. My Dad died a few years back, but his memory lives on in me, along with much love and respect. I have his medals, including the Military Medal, and I wear them on his behalf when appropriate.

My father was a man with a very strong sense of duty, and he performed that duty with distinction. However, he hated what was happening in WWII, and spoke to me of that hatred. He fought in North Africa and was responsible for rounding up many prisoners, both German and Italian. Strangely, the New Zealanders and the 'enemy' proved compatible and many became firm friends. My father was especially fond of the Italians, who did not want to be at war, since they did not believe in the cause their side fought for, and were gentle and cooperative as prisoners, and very friendly with the NZ soldiers.

My Dad was part of the 'liberation' of Italy, and he found the Italians, in the villages they cleared of enemy, were just as friendly, and often deliriously happy to see the back of the Axis soldiers, and welcomed the NZers with open arms. When you see your 'enemy' as fellow and deserving humans, it is hard to love war.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Indeed, I imagine that's the case. Most of the combat veterans whom I know seem to have lost any anger towards their opponents with the years, though it's true that some hang onto old bitterness. I'm glad for your father's sake that he was able to find his way to keep his humanity in what had to be terribly inhuman conditions.

My grandfather died over Western Europe in 1943; his B-17 went missing. I'd like to think that he too would've found his peace as your father did. My father and step-father both served in Vietnam. I'm not a combat vet myself, but I know many; I don't know one who loves war, and I won't lie, I'm glad that I only have learned to detest it in the abstract, from listening to them.

[Blind groper]

Thumpa

Nice to see we have something in common.
My feeling towards war is kinda ambivalent.

There is a saying : "To resort to violence is the last resort of the incompetent."
I believe that to be incorrect. The problem is that those leaders who are incompetent resort to violence long before it has become the last resort. Capable, or even great, leaders will be prepared to resort to violence, but not till every other option has been cleared.

War as a tool is something to be avoided, not quite at all costs, but until the costs of avoidance become unthinkable. America was right to go to war against Japan after Pearl Harbour. She was wrong to go to war in Viet Nam. The distinction is vitally important, and our leaders demonstrate their quality by showing that they appreciate that difference.

[Tyrannical]

The US was founded in part to avoid Europe's infantile ego wars, unfortunately British treachery over the Lusitania dragged us into WWI.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Thumpa

Nice to see we have something in common.
My feeling towards war is kinda ambivalent.

There is a saying : "To resort to violence is the last resort of the incompetent."
I believe that to be incorrect. The problem is that those leaders who are incompetent resort to violence long before it has become the last resort. Capable, or even great, leaders will be prepared to resort to violence, but not till every other option has been cleared.

War as a tool is something to be avoided, not quite at all costs, but until the costs of avoidance become unthinkable. America was right to go to war against Japan after Pearl Harbour. She was wrong to go to war in Viet Nam. The distinction is vitally important, and our leaders demonstrate their quality by showing that they appreciate that difference.

I certainly agree with those sentiments. It's my opinion that war is the penance paid by normal folk for the folly of leaders they elect, or tolerate. It's true that a war may be just, but that's cold comfort to those who suffer from it.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The US was founded in part to avoid Europe's infantile ego wars, unfortunately British treachery over the Lusitania dragged us into WWI.

Pardon?

[Jesus_of_Nazareth]

And some people have no idea why I loathe and hate nationalism as well as its kin, patriotism.

Although not very patriotic I am a nationalist.(I'm British - so not much to shout about, let alone attach a bayonet for to defend).

Nationalism is what stops your tribe being overrun by "them". There is always a them.

The alternative is that you give away what you (and your forebears) have worked for (or stolen!) over generations, at which point the smart folks look around and decide that not worth them adding into the group pot (whether done consciously or not)....as "them" is always more numerous than "us" and want more than we can ever have.

Used to be that the "Them" arrived with Armies and stole everything you had and then destroyed your culture / way of life - now it is by jumbo jet, under the name of mass immigration - aided and abetted by Spivs seeking short term financial gain and wishful thinkers who can't see how their own longterm prosperity (for self and kids) is linked to not sharing with every tom, dick and mohammed who has hand out 5 minutes after arriving....lets all sit in one big tent, holding hands and singing Kumbayah


As I said, have no personal intention of fixing a bayonet on broom handle - don't mean I am a pacifist. Would happily drop nukes on Muslims for looking at "us" funny, let alone 'em blowing our stuff up. But apparently that not very PC Which is probably just as well for Bradford......