Copyright tangent (from Is Am. Atheism Evolving...)

[amused]

This thread was split from here http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=27262 -- Ronja


Seth's fine print:

© 2011 Altnews, all rights reserved. Publication in this forum is granted pursuant to a limited copyright license and does not constitute transfer or surrender of any copyrights. No reuse, republication duplication or derivative work is authorized.

Copyright is enforced by government in publicly funded courts of law.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Seth's fine print:

© 2011 Altnews, all rights reserved. Publication in this forum is granted pursuant to a limited copyright license and does not constitute transfer or surrender of any copyrights. No reuse, republication duplication or derivative work is authorized.

Copyright is enforced by government in publicly funded courts of law.

I proposed that copyrighted material be removed from the forum when the status is not clear. Haven't heard much from Seth about that.

[Seth]

Seth's fine print:

© 2011 Altnews, all rights reserved. Publication in this forum is granted pursuant to a limited copyright license and does not constitute transfer or surrender of any copyrights. No reuse, republication duplication or derivative work is authorized.

Copyright is enforced by government in publicly funded courts of law.

So? Violation of copyright is an initiation of fraud, and Libertarians have no problem with systems of law that prevent and punish the initiation of force or fraud. They also have no problem paying for such systems when they need to make use of them.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

So it would be a good idea for the forum to delete copyrighted material so as not be open to legal problems.

[Seth]

So it would be a good idea for the forum to delete copyrighted material so as not be open to legal problems.

Not if it has a license to use the materials, which it does. And if the forum did as you suggest, then it would have to delete EVERY SINGLE POST by EVERY SINGLE AUTHOR, because under the Berne Convention international copyright laws, EVERY POST on this forum is automatically copyrighted to its author, without any further action or notification on the part of the author.

Both copyright notification (express notice or the use of the copyright symbol) along with registration of a work with the copyright office of the particular nation involved only affects recovery of damages and assignment of punitive damages for infringement, not the basic rights afforded every author of an intellectual property.

Nice try though. Better luck next time.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Oh, I think there are loopholes in that convention. Better luck next time.

[Seth]

Oh, I think there are loopholes in that convention. Better luck next time.

What do you mean, exactly. The copyright laws are very specific: copyrights cannot be transferred except in writing, and they accrue automatically. So, what "loopholes" are you referring to that would support your argument, such as it is?

[Hermit]

Oh, I think there are loopholes in that convention.

You don't have to look far either. The Berne Convention seeks to protect "every production in the literary, scientific and artistic domain, whatever may be the mode or form of its expression" (Article 2(1)). I doubt it would be easy to establish that every single post by every single author meets any or all of those criteria.

Then there is the matter of forum rules. Most forums take care to absolve themselves from any consequences that may arise from content posted. This means that it is the poster who by the act of posting grants permission to the forum owner(s) to publish the production regardless of whether it is literary, scientific or artistic in nature. Whether that permission can be withdrawn has never been tested to my knowledge.

[Seth]

Oh, I think there are loopholes in that convention.

You don't have to look far either. The Berne Convention seeks to protect "every production in the literary, scientific and artistic domain, whatever may be the mode or form of its expression" (Article 2(1)). I doubt it would be easy to establish that every single post by every single author meets any or all of those criteria.

Actually it is quite easy and automatic. Including as a body of work by an individual author, just as a series of letters written by one person to another are copyrighted by the author, even if the physical medium is the property of the recipient. This is well established in law by cases involving celebrities and notable persons whose estates still own the copyrights on such missives rather than the recipient.

The definitions are very broad:

(1) The expression “literary and artistic works” shall include every production in the literary, scientific and artistic domain, whatever may be the mode or form of its expression, such as books, pamphlets and other writings; lectures, addresses, sermons and other works of the same nature; dramatic or dramatico-musical works; choreographic works and entertainments in dumb show; musical compositions with or without words; cinematographic works to which are assimilated works expressed by a process analogous to cinematography; works of drawing, painting, architecture, sculpture, engraving and lithography; photographic works to which are assimilated works expressed by a process analogous to photography; works of applied art; illustrations, maps, plans, sketches and three-dimensional works relative to geography, topography, architecture or science.

(1) The protection of this Convention shall apply to:

(a) authors who are nationals of one of the countries of the Union, for their works, whether published or not;

(b) authors who are not nationals of one of the countries of the Union, for their works first published in one of those countries, or simultaneously in a country outside the Union and in a country of the Union.

(2) Authors who are not nationals of one of the countries of the Union but who have their habitual residence in one of them shall, for the purposes of this Convention, be assimilated to nationals of that country.

(3) The expression “published works” means works published with the consent of their authors, whatever may be the means of manufacture of the copies, provided that the availability of such copies has been such as to satisfy the reasonable requirements of the public, having regard to the nature of the work. The performance of a dramatic, dramatico-musical, cinematographic or musical work, the public recitation of a literary work, the communication by wire or the broadcasting of literary or artistic works, the exhibition of a work of art and the construction of a work of architecture shall not constitute publication.

(4) A work shall be considered as having been published simultaneously in several countries if it has been published in two or more countries within thirty days of its first publication.

Then there is the matter of forum rules. Most forums take care to absolve themselves from any consequences that may arise from content posted. This means that it is the poster who by the act of posting grants permission to the forum owner(s) to publish the production regardless of whether it is literary, scientific or artistic in nature. Whether that permission can be withdrawn has never been tested to my knowledge.

Forum rules cannot abrogate the Berne Convention or any other law, but yes, by posting here one is granting a LIMITED LICENSE to reproduce the work for the purposes of the forum and only WITHIN the forum. No TRANSFER of copyright takes place no matter what a forum rule says because a copyright transfer must be in writing with the consent of the author and it must explicitly transfer all copyrights on a per-work basis. Unless one is "working for hire," one's intellectual product belongs to the author, but it may be licensed for use by others, and "fair use" for commentary and criticism is also permitted, which is what allows the forum software to legally "quote" one person's writings in a subsequent post. It is the nature of the commentary give and take that makes it lawful.

Statements in a forum agreement that the forum "owns" the contributions are legally invalid as a blanket statement because copyright transfers must be individualized, explicit and unique to the work being transferred, and any attempt by the forum owner to misappropriate the works of members for their own purposes or benefit can subject the forum owners to civil damages.

On the other hand, if someone from the forum collected a bunch of writings from one person and then attempted to publish them in some other form, as a book or on another website, that would be a violation of copyrights of the author.

And that's why I have the copyright notice and express grant of limited license attached to every post I make. That puts others on notice that the works cannot be misappropriated and enhances the potential damages.

None of this prevents the operation of the forum in it's present form because the works here are licensed to the forum by the authors for use by the forum...but not for other uses or by other persons.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

"We're not shooting enough lawyers."

[Hermit]

The definitions are very broad:

(1) The expression “literary and artistic works” shall include every production in the literary, scientific and artistic domain, whatever may be the mode or form of its expression, such as books, pamphlets and other writings; lectures, addresses, sermons and other works of the same nature; dramatic or dramatico-musical works; choreographic works and entertainments in dumb show; musical compositions with or without words; cinematographic works to which are assimilated works expressed by a process analogous to cinematography; works of drawing, painting, architecture, sculpture, engraving and lithography; photographic works to which are assimilated works expressed by a process analogous to photography; works of applied art; illustrations, maps, plans, sketches and three-dimensional works relative to geography, topography, architecture or science.

Just let me know which post of yours fits any part of this very broad definition, and I shall do my utmost to resist the very real temptation to quote it in its entirety anywhere else without your written permission.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

We need a tangent thread or no?

[Hermit]

We need a tangent thread or no?

If we do, I suggest this title: "Hands off! That's my property."

[Gawdzilla Sama]

We need a tangent thread or no?

If we do, I suggest this title: "Hands off! That's my property."

Or "I can slap a sign on any damn thing I want to."

[Seth]

The definitions are very broad:

(1) The expression “literary and artistic works” shall include every production in the literary, scientific and artistic domain, whatever may be the mode or form of its expression, such as books, pamphlets and other writings; lectures, addresses, sermons and other works of the same nature; dramatic or dramatico-musical works; choreographic works and entertainments in dumb show; musical compositions with or without words; cinematographic works to which are assimilated works expressed by a process analogous to cinematography; works of drawing, painting, architecture, sculpture, engraving and lithography; photographic works to which are assimilated works expressed by a process analogous to photography; works of applied art; illustrations, maps, plans, sketches and three-dimensional works relative to geography, topography, architecture or science.

Just let me know which post of yours fits any part of this very broad definition, and I shall do my utmost to resist the very real temptation to quote it in its entirety anywhere else without your written permission.

All of them are "literary works... and other writings," therefore you may not reproduce any of them outside this forum without my express written permission without violating copyright law.