Free Speech & Right to Privacy/Libel/etc (more fun with PZ!)

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Coito ergo sum
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Re: Free Speech & Right to Privacy/Libel/etc (more fun with

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:52 pm

Red Celt wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Red Celt wrote: That aside, the lawn outside of the property that you inhabit... can you exclude your neighbours? Exclude them from doing what?
Walking on it. Setting foot on it.
So the lawn is what? An ornament?
In a way, yes. Beauty is an aspect of a home many people value, just like beautification projects in public parks are partly for the ornamental value -- the appearance -- to make the place more beautiful.

In my current yard, I take pride in making it look nice. I don't want dogs crapping in it, or people trodding across it, because of aesthetics. Strange people picnicking in my yard would also be unnerving to She, who likes to feel secure in her home, and strangers using the yard as a public park can be unsettling to some people.
Red Celt wrote: A green square of inch-high blades of grass, inhibited from doing what grass is meant to do (grow, seed and reproduce) so that... what?
Grass is not "meant" to do anything. Well, unless we're now theists ascribing an intention to the universe.

Grass is growing fine when it is husbanded by a human. It's no different than cultivating flowers, hedgerows and such. It can be very beautiful.

Red Celt wrote: It is a sculpted nothingness that nobody may inhabit?
Well, in the real world, i may inhabit it, and those who I allow onto it may inhabit it.

I'm still not clear how it's handled in your imagined world. You seem to suggest that people could just go there if they wanted to, tamp the grass down, and such, kick up divets and all, just because you happen to not think that is "damaging" to the lawn.
Red Celt wrote: Put a sign up saying "this is a work of art" so that your neighbours can gather and view it, offering their own interpretation of the artist's meaning.
No. I don't want a sign. If you want a sign, then you put it up.
Red Celt wrote:
I'm confused by what you're trying to accomplish (other than "This belongs to me! I own it! It is mine!").
What's so confusing about wanting to maintain a nice, beautiful, safe and private space within which I and my family can reside, with the right not to have it interfered with by others who have no stake in its care or maintenance?
Red Celt wrote:
It's a bit of land. It was a bit of land before you were born and it will still be a bit of land after you're dead. Just... what's the point of claiming it as yours, in the mean time?
To have a place to sleep, eat, relax, and enjoy life, as well as raise my family, without being subject to the interference of others, for one thing.
Red Celt wrote:
If it's a communal area (belonging to nobody) why does it matter what other people do on it?

:bored:
In your imagined world, what would not be a communal area? And, if there are any areas that are not communal, why the distinction?

For example, the garage in the house in which I live communal? Can anyone park there when I'm not around, and use the tools and equipment I have stored in there? If not, why not?

One aspect of obtaining a property in something is added value. That's part of the concept of property rights. If I build a boat, and I row that boat out into the lake, and I sit there all afternoon and catch a fish, and then I row the boat back and I light a fire, and I start cooking that fish, is that fish mine? In a property concept, the idea is that the fish is mine because I caught it and did the work to get it. Someone who didn't do that can't come along later and say that the fish is just as much his. It's natural for humans to gain that expectation -- it is as natural as "I worked to farm this land, and I gathered the seeds and I plowed the rows, and I planted, and the seed grew, and I harvested, so the corn is mine."

Same with the grass. You may not think a nice garden of grass is important for aesthetic purposes, but I do.

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Re: Free Speech & Right to Privacy/Libel/etc (more fun with

Post by charlou » Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:51 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
Same with the grass. You may not think a nice garden of grass is important for aesthetic purposes, but I do.
I've been assuming that the overwhelming consensus in red celt's imagined world is driven by one of two philosophies I can think of at this point .. a form of anarchy .. or a form of communism*. Any others?

The grass is almost irrelevant. It is allowed to run wild, or it is manipulated .. but the manipulation is an in the moment thing and does not impose value laden limitations on others.


*aside .. is there a possible combination of the two? anarchic communism?
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Re: Free Speech & Right to Privacy/Libel/etc (more fun with

Post by Red Celt » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:27 pm

RiverF wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Same with the grass. You may not think a nice garden of grass is important for aesthetic purposes, but I do.
I've been assuming that the overwhelming consensus in red celt's imagined world is driven by one of two philosophies I can think of at this point .. a form of anarchy .. or a form of communism*. Any others?

The grass is almost irrelevant. It is allowed to run wild, or it is manipulated .. but the manipulation is an in the moment thing and does not impose value laden limitations on others.


*aside .. is there a possible combination of the two? anarchic communism?
Communism is extremely authoritarian. Anarchy the exact opposite. I didn't have an exact image in mind (although the anarchic state in The Dispossessed give an interesting picture), but my point was that a societal state could exist that had liberty and no property. Fixing the two together is a mistake... and one that libertarians can't help but making.

It's a porkpie short of a picnic basket.

But, hey... the grass is always greener, eh? :what?: :what?:
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Re: Free Speech & Right to Privacy/Libel/etc (more fun with

Post by devogue » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:51 pm

All I need to know is whether or not there is more sex in Red Celt's world.

I suspect there is.

If there is more sex, then I won't need my TV. If I don't need my TV I don't need a comfortable, private room in which to watch it, therefore I only need a private bedroom, but that might stop me having moar sex, so that's no TV, no living room, and no bedrooms. But I'll need a toilet. Oh look, there are some bushes, and whaddya know, shit is biodegradable! Someone light a fire, cook some marshmallows - I'm busy with this minge.

Ha ha, look at CES everyone! Cutting his grass while we are awash in a sea of lovely muff!

:hehe:

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Re: Free Speech & Right to Privacy/Libel/etc (more fun with

Post by John_fi_Skye » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:52 pm

What kind of cow is this woman?

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/sally-bercow-n ... 18850.html

And is twitter the new witch-hunting mechanism?
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Re: Free Speech & Right to Privacy/Libel/etc (more fun with

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:35 pm

John_fi_Skye wrote:What kind of cow is this woman?

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/sally-bercow-n ... 18850.html

And is twitter the new witch-hunting mechanism?
I'm more concerned about the article using the term "maths teacher."

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Re: Free Speech & Right to Privacy/Libel/etc (more fun with

Post by hadespussercats » Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:39 am

RiverF wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Same with the grass. You may not think a nice garden of grass is important for aesthetic purposes, but I do.
I've been assuming that the overwhelming consensus in red celt's imagined world is driven by one of two philosophies I can think of at this point .. a form of anarchy .. or a form of communism*. Any others?

The grass is almost irrelevant. It is allowed to run wild, or it is manipulated .. but the manipulation is an in the moment thing and does not impose value laden limitations on others.


*aside .. is there a possible combination of the two? anarchic communism?
I'm saying this without being caught up with the rest of the thread (yet) but--

My sense is that the time CES puts in to beautify his lawn (however he defines beauty) is worth something to him. Even in a society where things belong to no one, time must belong to an individual. We must be able to choose how we spend our time, or that's no world worth living in, IMO.

But CES has invested his time (which is his to use as he chooses) to make a lawn beautiful, to his view.

What benefit is there to him or to society at large for that investment of time and energy to go unrecognized-- for other people to use/abuse/dominate/whatever, the little patch of grass CES has made so nice other people can't resist it?

Know what I'm saying?
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Re: Free Speech & Right to Privacy/Libel/etc (more fun with

Post by Red Celt » Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:56 am

hadespussercats wrote:
RiverF wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Same with the grass. You may not think a nice garden of grass is important for aesthetic purposes, but I do.
I've been assuming that the overwhelming consensus in red celt's imagined world is driven by one of two philosophies I can think of at this point .. a form of anarchy .. or a form of communism*. Any others?

The grass is almost irrelevant. It is allowed to run wild, or it is manipulated .. but the manipulation is an in the moment thing and does not impose value laden limitations on others.


*aside .. is there a possible combination of the two? anarchic communism?
I'm saying this without being caught up with the rest of the thread (yet) but--

My sense is that the time CES puts in to beautify his lawn (however he defines beauty) is worth something to him. Even in a society where things belong to no one, time must belong to an individual. We must be able to choose how we spend our time, or that's no world worth living in, IMO.

But CES has invested his time (which is his to use as he chooses) to make a lawn beautiful, to his view.

What benefit is there to him or to society at large for that investment of time and energy to go unrecognized-- for other people to use/abuse/dominate/whatever, the little patch of grass CES has made so nice other people can't resist it?

Know what I'm saying?
Well, yes. The thing is, in a liberal society, your rights extend up until the point where the rights of others are contravened. So, if someone were to cause harm to CES's well-tended lawn, they'd be breaking that premise. If they're liberal, they wouldn't cause harm to others. That would be true whether or not the lawn was "owned" by CES. Of course... that would require knowledge. His neighbours would need to know that he was anal-retentive about a square patch of grass and treat it differently to other stretches of grass which weren't considered areas of taboo wrt people walking on it.

A liberal world can exist without the ownership of property. Whether or not you would personally value such a world is a moot point, as that wasn't what was being argued. Can such a world exist? Yes it can.
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Re: Free Speech & Right to Privacy/Libel/etc (more fun with

Post by John_fi_Skye » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:31 am

Coito ergo sum wrote:
John_fi_Skye wrote:What kind of cow is this woman?

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/sally-bercow-n ... 18850.html

And is twitter the new witch-hunting mechanism?
I'm more concerned about the article using the term "maths teacher."
I hate the underlines when I'm typing in Word, and it disapproves of something I've done. (I disabled it in my previous laptop, but haven't got around to doing it in this one.) What right has a fucking machine to correct my English?!

So, anyway, when I'm typing Gaelic, almost every Gaelic word is spelt like no English word, so you just get every word underlined, because the stupid fucking machine doesn't recognise it. And then in the middle of a sentence you'll use the word for "good", which in Gaelic is "math" (pronounced "ma!", with a very short "a"), and so you suddenly have one word not underlined, because the fucking moronic laptop thinks you're using the Murkin word for "maths". And at that point I want to put my foot through the screen, but the thought of the financial consequences of that restrains me.
Pray, do not mock me: I am a very foolish fond old man; And, to deal plainly, I fear I am not in my perfect mind.

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Re: Free Speech & Right to Privacy/Libel/etc (more fun with

Post by Audley Strange » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:36 am

John, I don't know if this will or will not help but it is nice to see you lose your cool.

:{D

http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/gaidhlig/wentw ... glish.html
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Re: Free Speech & Right to Privacy/Libel/etc (more fun with

Post by John_fi_Skye » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:01 am

Audley Strange wrote:John, I don't know if this will or will not help but it is nice to see you lose your cool.

:{D

http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/gaidhlig/wentw ... glish.html
Thanks. I knew this existed, but hadn't ever seen it. I'll forward it to Mrs fi_Skye too.
Pray, do not mock me: I am a very foolish fond old man; And, to deal plainly, I fear I am not in my perfect mind.

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Re: Free Speech & Right to Privacy/Libel/etc (more fun with

Post by Cormac » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:18 am

I threatened him with a defamation action, and I meant it.

He did not just defame Pappa, but all members of this forum. I am easily identifiable, as I use my real name, and have spoken about where I'm from, and so on.

PZ is sadly lacking in understanding the legal interplay between defamation, free speech, and the right to privacy. Hardly surprising, given the sycophantic cacophany over which he squats.
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Re: Free Speech & Right to Privacy/Libel/etc (more fun with

Post by Red Celt » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:29 am

Cormac wrote:I threatened him with a defamation action, and I meant it.

He did not just defame Pappa, but all members of this forum. I am easily identifiable, as I use my real name, and have spoken about where I'm from, and so on.

PZ is sadly lacking in understanding the legal interplay between defamation, free speech, and the right to privacy. Hardly surprising, given the sycophantic cacophany over which he squats.
How did you get from the previous conversation to PZ Myers? Did you reply in the wrong thread? :)
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Re: Free Speech & Right to Privacy/Libel/etc (more fun with

Post by Cormac » Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:05 pm

Red Celt wrote:
Cormac wrote:I threatened him with a defamation action, and I meant it.

He did not just defame Pappa, but all members of this forum. I am easily identifiable, as I use my real name, and have spoken about where I'm from, and so on.

PZ is sadly lacking in understanding the legal interplay between defamation, free speech, and the right to privacy. Hardly surprising, given the sycophantic cacophany over which he squats.
How did you get from the previous conversation to PZ Myers? Did you reply in the wrong thread? :)
Must've been a merge?

:sulk:
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Re: Free Speech & Right to Privacy/Libel/etc (more fun with

Post by Svartalf » Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:28 pm

Cormac wrote:I threatened him with a defamation action, and I meant it.

He did not just defame Pappa, but all members of this forum. I am easily identifiable, as I use my real name, and have spoken about where I'm from, and so on.

PZ is sadly lacking in understanding the legal interplay between defamation, free speech, and the right to privacy. Hardly surprising, given the sycophantic cacophany over which he squats.
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