"If you dislike feminism ... "

[Robert_S]

Ridicule, sarcasm and other forms of the piss-take are legitimate weapons against all types of idiots, be they Feminazis, KKK, blowhard Texas Republicans, Che T-shirt wearing art students or fundys. Singling out feminists as a protected class is no better than keeping them in the kitchen. If you're going to play on the big swingset you have to be prepared for a few bumps and bruises.

I'm not saying they should be a protected class. I'm saying that it's a lot easier to fuck up than some might be inclined to think when taking the piss at them.

[laklak]

How so, Robert?

[charlou]

There was an interesting opinion piece in the local newspaper today (in Swedish), where the writer noted that a previous writer, who had set out to write a constructive article about problems of men, actually quite eloquently sorted men into "swines" and "loosers". I am sure that the first writer had not meant any harm, but that kind of makes the point.

There is also a stream over here, wanting to widen the definition of "feminism" to include all work for (gender) equality. So that if I fight for better rights for men in divorce fights over kids, that would also be feminism. I've tried to argue with (some of) these, that taking a term created from one gender and equating that to equality is actually an act of inequality in itself, to no avail, I am afraid.

As I noted elsewhere the other day ... What I prefer about humanism is the big picture inclusiveness of it. It addresses every person equally, rationally, and without sensationalism, divisiveness or malice.

A humanist approach doesn't deny problems exist, but it does look at them from a broader, holistic perspective, with a view to constructive assessment and progress.

[charlou]

What is feminism? How is it defined? Does it have a definition that encapsulates what it is, with understood principles to which people subscribe?

[Robert_S]

How so, Robert?

Think for a minute.

[Robert_S]

What is feminism? How is it defined? Does it have a definition that encapsulates what it is, with understood principles to which people subscribe?

Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women.[1][2] This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women.[3]

Feminist theory, which emerged from these feminist movements, aims to understand the nature of gender inequality by examining women's social roles and lived experience; it has developed theories in a variety of disciplines in order to respond to issues such as the social construction of sex and gender.[4][5] Some of the earlier forms of feminism have been criticized for taking into account only white, middle-class, educated perspectives. This led to the creation of ethnically specific or multiculturalist forms of feminism.[6]

[charlou]

Thanks Robert.

Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies ...

Is it widely considered among feminists that they alone advocate and support the rights and equality of women?

[Robert_S]

Thanks Robert.

Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies ...

Is it widely considered among feminists that they alone advocate and support the rights and equality of women?

I don't know. Perhaps it is considered that if you advocate and support the rights and equality of women you are a feminist no matter if you identify as such or not.

[charlou]

I support the rights and equality of women as part of a broader support of the rights and equality of all people, and the feminism I've been seeing is taking a narrow, divisive, abusive, alienating approach I just cannot subscribe to.

[laklak]

How so, Robert?

Think for a minute.

"Fuck up" implies judgment, so who is doing the judging? If I'm taking the piss that indicates I consider their judgment faulty.

[Pappa]

I support the rights and equality of women as part of a broader support of the rights and equality of all people, and the feminism I've been seeing is taking a narrow, divisive, abusive, alienating approach I just cannot subscribe to.

That pretty much sums up my position too. Though, I would expand that slightly to be, "...the Internet feminists I've been seeing...".

Also, I think sexual or gender equality has reached a level where it is now less of an issue (if only slightly so) than other equality issues, such as race, disability, class and sexuality. Castigating people who are generally quite liberal as woman haters and rape enablers over fairly minor issues does real harm. My reaction to something like that is to think, "Fuck you, you feminazi bitch", rather than "Oh, actually you might be right. I should probably work on that", as I might do if confronted in a reasonable manner.

[Cormac]

Ridicule, sarcasm and other forms of the piss-take are legitimate weapons against all types of idiots, be they Feminazis, KKK, blowhard Texas Republicans, Che T-shirt wearing art students or fundys. Singling out feminists as a protected class is no better than keeping them in the kitchen. If you're going to play on the big swingset you have to be prepared for a few bumps and bruises.

[Cormac]

What is feminism? How is it defined? Does it have a definition that encapsulates what it is, with understood principles to which people subscribe?

Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women.[1][2] This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women.[3]

Feminist theory, which emerged from these feminist movements, aims to understand the nature of gender inequality by examining women's social roles and lived experience; it has developed theories in a variety of disciplines in order to respond to issues such as the social construction of sex and gender.[4][5] Some of the earlier forms of feminism have been criticized for taking into account only white, middle-class, educated perspectives. This led to the creation of ethnically specific or multiculturalist forms of feminism.[6]

...and this is part of the problem. "Theory" in this case is like "Literary Theory", placing it squarely into the domain of post-modernism - of the post-modernist essay generator type. In fact, there is no "theory" involved. There is ideology, and a whole slew of meaningless, ill-defined and incoherent nonsense.

It is precisely this confederacy of idiocy that leads to the legion of spite that surrounds Pee Zed and the eejits at Apelust.

[rainbow]

I think that Feminism has achieved a great deal. It has changed the mindset that women shouldn't be given the same opportunities as men.

What is disturbing is the tendency within the Feminist movement that assumes that men are the problem. That is fighting sexism with sexism, and it cannot work. It can only alienate.

[Robert_S]

I think that Feminism has achieved a great deal. It has changed the mindset that women shouldn't be given the same opportunities as men.

What is disturbing is the tendency within the Feminist movement that assumes that men are the problem. That is fighting sexism with sexism, and it cannot work. It can only alienate.

The problems are distributed. They sure are easier to see when they crop up in men though. And it sure can't be easy for what's also supposed to be supportive of women to criticize women. I imagine one would have to be careful and thoughtful doing so to avoid fucking up.