Slaughtering and eating cats (NSFW?)

[tattuchu]

If we're going to eat the flesh of animals, then what's the difference if they're cute or not? An animal is an animal. Killing and eating cats or dogs is no more cruel than eating other mammals. Take the skin off and it's just meat underneath. It's all meat.
Though of course killing and eating animals is cruel and unnecessary. And I handle this by not thinking too hard on it. If I thought too hard on it, I'd be a vegetarian. But flesh tastes good, and I'm very weak. As to eating meat being "natural," that doesn't mean much to me. We are the most highly evolved creatures on this planet. We can think, we can reason, we can make our own choices. We can decide for ourselves what we want to consume, what we ought to consume, and what we ought not to consume. We are not slaves to base desires. We have big brains, and we know how to use them.

[lordpasternack]

On a lighter note - this must be the magpie version of Russian roulette:

[charlou]

Earthworms are perfectly edible if soaked in water overnight, by the way.

Imagine people going through a fastfood drive-through and ordering a bucket of bugs and being asked "would you like worms with that?" ... "Oh, goody ... and supersize it, too! ".


Reducing/eliminating the cruelty of mass meat production ... Fewer people on the planet eating less food would be a good start.

[Hermit]

Instinct versus deliberate, planned actions. That's the difference. It doesn't make us holy, but it set those species who do it apart from all others. One way we're different. And humans are the tops at that game.

Every species has some unique behavior. Does that make all species unnatural? Supernatural? The fact that human behavior is the most complex does in no way separate it from nature. It's evolved behavior just like birds building nests and cats killing birds. We instinctively think, and we instinctively act on our thoughts. If not for our evolved cerebral cortex, we'd still be swinging in the trees. Nothing unnatural about the evolution of the cerebrum, is there? And nothing unnatural about its biochemical activity? And nothing unnatural about the behavioral responses to that activity? I don't see a ghost in the machine. If you do, that's cool with me, but I'm not buying it until I can see it demonstrated.

Beavers build dams, termites build mounds, birds build nests, etc, but there is nothing instinctive about extracting ores, manufacturing steel and building bridges with it. Just like animals, we have sex too, but animals don't have sex-toy shops. It is precisely our cerebral cortex that enables us to do things that animals can't. That part of the brain is not responsible for the instinctual aspects of our behaviour. It adds a dimension to our behaviour that animals do not have, a dimension that differentiates us from animals. Without it, we would not have invented the wheel, let alone get around to designing and mass producing automobiles. Or formulating the theory of gravity. The cerebral cortex does not make us unnatural or supernatural, but it does differentiate human societies qualitatively from those of animals. We are animals, but we are not just animals. While birdsong is beautiful, it has none of the artifice of this:

[charlou]

Instinct versus deliberate, planned actions. That's the difference. It doesn't make us holy, but it set those species who do it apart from all others. One way we're different. And humans are the tops at that game.

Every species has some unique behavior. Does that make all species unnatural? Supernatural? The fact that human behavior is the most complex does in no way separate it from nature. It's evolved behavior just like birds building nests and cats killing birds. We instinctively think, and we instinctively act on our thoughts. If not for our evolved cerebral cortex, we'd still be swinging in the trees. Nothing unnatural about the evolution of the cerebrum, is there? And nothing unnatural about its biochemical activity? And nothing unnatural about the behavioral responses to that activity? I don't see a ghost in the machine. If you do, that's cool with me, but I'm not buying it until I can see it demonstrated.

Beavers build dams, termites build mounds, birds build nests, etc, but there is nothing instinctive about extracting ores, manufacturing steel and building bridges with it. Just like animals, we have sex too, but animals don't have sex-toy shops. It is precisely our cerebral cortex that enables us to do things that animals can't. That part of the brain is not responsible for the instinctual aspects of our behaviour. It adds a dimension to our behaviour that animals do not have, a dimension that differentiates us from animals. Without it, we would not have invented the wheel, let alone get around to designing and mass producing automobiles. Or formulating the theory of gravity. The cerebral cortex does not make us unnatural or supernatural, but it does differentiate human societies qualitatively from those of animals. We are animals, but we are not just animals. While birdsong is beautiful, it has none of the artifice of this:

But why do we strive to improve things for ourselves? Pleasure is self indulgence and placates a part of our brain that has evolved to appreciate it.

[charlou]

But why do we strive to improve things for ourselves? Pleasure is self indulgence and placates a part of our brain that has evolved to appreciate it.

Elaborating, and connecting this to the topic .... The sight, smell and taste of foods is an encultured experience that goes directly to this desire to satisfy ones hunger being associated with survival ... pleasure has become the extension of 'hunger' ... desire to fulfill ...

[Hermit]

But why do we strive to improve things for ourselves? Pleasure is self indulgence and placates a part of our brain that has evolved to appreciate it.

True. The difference is the cerebral cortex. It enables us to do things animals can't. That's why we have a physical effect on this planet that dwarfs the scale of any animal.

[charlou]

Roast lamb and vegetables ... a barbecue ... a simmering casserole ... bread in the oven ... the smells of a fruit market ... fish and chips ...


... all are

But why do we strive to improve things for ourselves? Pleasure is self indulgence and placates a part of our brain that has evolved to appreciate it.

True. The difference is the cerebral cortex. It enables us to do things animals can't. That's why we have a physical effect on this planet that dwarfs the scale of any animal.

Yes, but the difference you're talking about is the ability to create and manage the environment to our self-gratifying design ... we have also evolved the physical attributes necessary in unison ... had to, in order to be capable of putting this into practice.

I think other animals, particularly mammals, experience pleasure as part of their self gratification/survival, and act in whatever way they've evolved to maximise this.

[Hermit]

But why do we strive to improve things for ourselves? Pleasure is self indulgence and placates a part of our brain that has evolved to appreciate it.

True. The difference is the cerebral cortex. It enables us to do things animals can't. That's why we have a physical effect on this planet that dwarfs the scale of any animal.

Yes, but the difference you're talking about is the ability to create and manage the environment to our self-gratifying design ... we have also evolved the physical attributes necessary in unison ... had to, in order to be capable of putting this into practice.

I think other animals, particularly mammals, experience pleasure as part of their self gratification/survival, and act to maximise this.

Yes, the difference I'm talking about is the cerebral cortex. It enables us to transcend the scope of what other animals can do because no other animals have one. I think this difference is qualitative. No animal has written an ode to a Grecian urn or a thesis on ethics to please itself or others. Animals do not reflect on the possibility of the existence of a god thingy either, or devise cunning plans for mass destruction. We do, and we are uniquely able to build the tools for doing so, be they pens, dildos or fission bombs. If an animal can be found that could do any of those things without the use of the cerebral cortex, I'll concede that we are just animals.

[Robert_S]

But why do we strive to improve things for ourselves? Pleasure is self indulgence and placates a part of our brain that has evolved to appreciate it.

True. The difference is the cerebral cortex. It enables us to do things animals can't. That's why we have a physical effect on this planet that dwarfs the scale of any animal.

To bring it back on topic,

We can formulate the question: "Should we extend the same instinctual susceptibility to cuteness that we have for cats, dogs and skunks to cows, chickens and fish?"

That's something that other animals cannot do. From one point of view it's not a new thing under the sun, but it is a new arrangement of existing things. That is one example of a more complex self-image map that has a level of abstraction that, I think, is qualitatively different from our nearest neighbors on the tree.

I'm still thinking about how I'm going to back that up though.

Edit: heh, I was slow and Seraph beat me to qualitative bit.

[charlou]

But why do we strive to improve things for ourselves? Pleasure is self indulgence and placates a part of our brain that has evolved to appreciate it.

True. The difference is the cerebral cortex. It enables us to do things animals can't. That's why we have a physical effect on this planet that dwarfs the scale of any animal.

Yes, but the difference you're talking about is the ability to create and manage the environment to our self-gratifying design ... we have also evolved the physical attributes necessary in unison ... had to, in order to be capable of putting this into practice.

I think other animals, particularly mammals, experience pleasure as part of their self gratification/survival, and act to maximise this.

Yes, the difference I'm talking about is the cerebral cortex. It enables us to transcend the scope of what other animals can do because no other animals have one. I think this difference is qualitative. No animal has written an ode to a Grecian urn or a thesis on ethics to please itself or others. Animals do not reflect on the possibility of the existence of a god thingy either, or devise cunning plans for mass destruction. We do, and we are uniquely able to build the tools for doing so, be they pens, dildos or fission bombs. If an animal can be found that could do any of those things without the use of the cerebral cortex, I'll concede that we are just animals.

I think you're romanticising humans and our abilities. If you look at the base motivation for what we do, it's instinctual. Okay, so we've evolved the physical attributes to manifest our abilities to a more cogent and finessed level physically, including our mental prowess ... but our base rationale is self indulgent desire to appease 'hunger' through pleasure. We are just animals.

[charlou]

That said, humans can overcome aspects of our self indulgence .... preconceptions, traditional mores and addictions have been overcome ... it takes effort ... we have language and can negotiate ethics ... this is another way we differ from other animals.

But don't we even do this in order to improve things for ourselves?

In the instance of alleviating suffering of other animals, aren't we doing so only because we recognise their suffering and can empathise, and are thus compelled to alleviate our own emotional response by doing the 'right' thing?

[leo-rcc]

But why do we strive to improve things for ourselves? Pleasure is self indulgence and placates a part of our brain that has evolved to appreciate it.

True. The difference is the cerebral cortex. It enables us to do things other animals can't. That's why we have a physical effect on this planet that dwarfs the scale of any other animal.

Fixed.

[Hermit]

But why do we strive to improve things for ourselves? Pleasure is self indulgence and placates a part of our brain that has evolved to appreciate it.

True. The difference is the cerebral cortex. It enables us to do things other animals can't. That's why we have a physical effect on this planet that dwarfs the scale of any other animal.

Fixed.

Ahem. You missed the bit where I said "Yes, the difference I'm talking about is the cerebral cortex. It enables us to transcend the scope of what other animals can do because no other animals have one." Yes, I was inaccurate in so far as I mentioned the cerebral cortex when it should have been the neocortex, and furthermore that other mammals have a less developed version of that as well, but I think our ability to manufacture tools and think abstractly sets us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom in a qualitative rather than quantitative way. Let me know when animals instinctually come up with The Lovesong of J. Alfred Prufrock, The Art of the Fugue or the general theory of relativity.

[charlou]

I didn't miss that bit, yet still disagree with you that we transcend being animals just because we've evolved abilities that are different. We're just a part of the range of animal diversity.