Do you craft/choose your thoughts before you have them?

[GrahamH]

If, in present time, I think "I think I'll go get some ice cream later today," I'm having that thought now about a possible future event. I can also know that other things can happen, including I might change my mind or somebody might show up with some ice cream. It does seem that we recognize that we have a thought, and, as large-brained beings, we have the capacity to change our minds, alter course, correct for mistakes and consider the ramifications of our actions. However, we are still doing all of these things in present time.

Happy Easter to All!

Who/what assembles those concepts into a plan of action? I THINK GET ICE CREAM TODAY LATER. Did 'you' select and assemble the words? Did you construct the compound concept of you eating ice cream on a spring afternoon? I take the OP to be asking these questions. If the thoughts come 'into awareness' in this complex form then the thought is formed before we are aware of thinking it. The same goes for 'changing your mind' It must be changed before you become aware of the change.

[LaMont Cranston]

GrahamH, These are all very good questions, and I wish I had a definitive set of answers for you. I have some answers that work for me, at least most of the time, and I do the best I can to consider other possibilities.

Who/what assembles these concepts into a plan of action? The most obvious answer is that we do. I grew up in a culture where ice cream was always available, and I've developed a liking for ice cream. That's part of the set of experiences that has brought me to present time, which is where I am right now. I can also consider lots of other possibilities, both positive and negative, about whether or not I'm actually going to get the ice cream later today. (i.e. I'm trying to watch my weight)

Does this mean we have free will because we get to make choices about whether or not we're going to get ice cream, which flavor, what brand, etc? I've been involved in enough threads, particularly on RDF, that I feel burned out on the subject, but, bottom line, if we don't have free will, I can make a pretty decent case that the illusion that we do is quite believable.

When it comes to other thoughts that involve moral and ethical concepts (i.e. "Should I commit suicide? Should I beat my wife today?" etc.), I can recognize that I have those thoughts, but it's pretty easy to know that I'm, in all probability, not going to do either today. As rational, conscious and aware beings, we can recognize that there are, from our point of view about life, positive and negative consequences to our actions. For most of us, it's not all that hard to figure out.
It these thoughts and the decisions to act or not act are not predicated by me, the perceiver, then where do they come from? If, it could be demonstrated that they come from some source outside of myself, am I compelled to respond to those those in a certain way. It does not apppear that's the case.

As for thoughts "coming into awareness" or "changing our minds," I tend to disagree that we are not conscious of those things. I would submit to you that they do not exist in our consciousness until we are aware of them; if we are not aware of them, they do not exist for us, and they only exist in present time. That would mean that we are aware of the change as the change is happening, because we are the ones making the change. If you can demonstrate that it is any other way, please let us know about it.

[Surendra Darathy]

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, here, but...

If I could think before I think, what would that mean?


I spend a lot more time wondering if my thoughts are my own. I've given up trying to figure out which parts of my thoughts are original, and which are just pale embellishments upon those of the really great thinkers, such as Comte de Saint-Germain.

Is Monsieur Le Comte having ice-cream today? Can anyone have his ice-cream, and eat it, too?

Mmmmm, says Homer Simpson, bacon-flavoured ice-cream!

[GrahamH]

As for thoughts "coming into awareness" or "changing our minds," I tend to disagree that we are not conscious of those things. I would submit to you that they do not exist in our consciousness until we are aware of them; if we are not aware of them, they do not exist for us, and they only exist in present time. That would mean that we are aware of the change as the change is happening, because we are the ones making the change. If you can demonstrate that it is any other way, please let us know about it.

My point is that generating thoughts, assembling concepts, translating concepts into language, are not 'conscious' processes. We are not 'subjectively aware' of the processes that presumably must underlie our experienced thinking. It seems clear then that what we might recognise as 'subjective self' or 'I' does not 'craft / choose your thoughts'. That in no way suggests that this is not a function of what we call 'my mind', merely to highlight that the boundary of 'I' is much smaller than 'my mind' and that 'crafting thoughts' is not done by the 'I'. In the other topic the suggestion is that there is nothing 'inside the self/I' and that it is the thinking mind that 'crafts thoughts' about a fictional 'I'.

[GrahamH]

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, here, but...

Are we not to flog dead horses here (even though no one is buying)? What else should we do?

[Surendra Darathy]

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, here, but...

Are we not to flog dead horses here (even though no one is buying)? What else should we do?

Oh, right. Blame the victim.

[LaMont Cranston]

GrahamH, I get it that you are trying to sell the idea that "generating thoughts, assembling concepts, translating thoughts into language" are not 'conscious' processes. Excuse me, but just how is it that you know that to be true? You also say that we are not "subjectively aware" of the processes that presumably must
underlie our experienced thinking. In this case, you are the one making that presumption, not me. How about we take out the word "subjectively" from that last sentence and just leave the word "aware?" Are we "aware" of the processes at some point? If that's the case, just when is it that awareness kicks in?

If you'll notice, you are failing to address the idea that we experience our thoughts in present time. That brings up the very distinct possibility that here and now is the only time we are aware of anything. Do you have anything you'd like to say about that?

I must admit that I got a bit bored with that other thread, and it seemed as if it was going nowhere. Just how do you differentiate between "the mind" and "I?"

[SpeedOfSound]

GrahamH, I get it that you are trying to sell the idea that "generating thoughts, assembling concepts, translating thoughts into language" are not 'conscious' processes. Excuse me, but just how is it that you know that to be true? You also say that we are not "subjectively aware" of the processes that presumably must
underlie our experienced thinking. In this case, you are the one making that presumption, not me. How about we take out the word "subjectively" from that last sentence and just leave the word "aware." Are we "aware" of the processes at some point? If that's the case, just when is it that awareness kicks in?

If you'll notice, you are failing to address the idea that we experience our thoughts in present time. That brings up the very distinct possibility that here and now is the only time we are aware of anything. Do you have anything you'd like to say about that?

I must admit that I got a bit bored with that other thread, and it seemed as if it was going nowhere. Just how do you differentiate between "the mind" and "I?"

There is a couple of freight trains full of empirical evidence that 98% of our thinking is unconscious. But don't trust that. Read a little and ask yourself some questions about how you can tell the difference between some sentence about river banks and state banks without thinking about it. Or how you aren't aware of this word until I ask you to be.

Look up unconscious priming for some quick examples.

[LaMont Cranston]

SOS, There is a point I've been asking about that neither you or GrahamH seem to want to address. I can tell the difference between river banks, state banks, sperm banks and other kinds of banks, and it does require thinking about it. Or, I wasn't aware of this word until you asked me to be.

The point I'm making is that you, I and others are aware of those things and think those thoughts in present time. If I'm eating ice cream right now...or even thinking about it...I'm doing it here and now. If I think about eating ice cream in the past, I'm doing it here and now and thinking about a time that happened there and then.

So, if it is true that 98% of our thinking is unconscious, does that mean that we are only experiencing 2% of what we are experiencing in present time? Or, if you know a way that we experience things in any time other than present time, will you please explain how we do that?

[GrahamH]

SOS, There is a point I've been asking about that neither you or GrahamH seem to want to address. I can tell the difference between river banks, state banks, sperm banks and other kinds of banks, and it does require thinking about it. Or, I wasn't aware of this word until you asked me to be.

The point I'm making is that you, I and others are aware of those things and think those thoughts in present time. If I'm eating ice cream right now...or even thinking about it...I'm doing it here and now. If I think about eating ice cream in the past, I'm doing it here and now and thinking about a time that happened there and then.

So, if it is true that 98% of our thinking is unconscious, does that mean that we are only experiencing 2% of what we are experiencing in present time? Or, if you know a way that we experience things in any time other than present time, will you please explain how we do that?

We don't experience thought construction. Some simple consideration of your own 'thought processes' should make that clear. The words you write 'come to mind' and are not assembled in an experienced process. You can ride a bike without experiencing every muscle contraction and motion of the inner ear. You recognise faces 'without a thought' of discriminating features and accessing memory of what people look like. How could all that happen without a thinking machine working unseen to construct the thoughts and know the knowledge?

[LaMont Cranston]

GrahamH, How could that happen? Gee, I never promised you a definitive answer, but simply because you think things should be a certain way doesn't make it so. We really don't know the limitations of the human mind. SOS said that there are many so-called authorities who say that 98% of our thinking is unconscious.
If it's unconscious, is it actually part of our thinking? Does something become a thought only after we think it, or are there all of these unacknowledge thoughts lurking under the surface of which we are not aware? If we aren't aware of them, how do we know they exist?

As for that 98%/2% thing, if it should turn out that we are only experiencing 2% of an experience, does that make it a complete experience for us? I get it if I'm riding a bike that I'm not aware of every muscle fiber, nerve ending and blood cell that's a part of my body. It turns out that we are aware of whatever we are aware of, and, once again, we only have that experience in present time. Or, if you know of any other time we experience anything other than here and now, please tell us what time it is.

[Bruce Burleson]

GrahamH, How could that happen? Gee, I never promised you a definitive answer, but simply because you think things should be a certain way doesn't make it so. We really don't know the limitations of the human mind. SOS said that there are many so-called authorities who say that 98% of our thinking is unconscious.
If it's unconscious, is it actually part of our thinking?

It's part of the brain's thinking. The brain usually does the work for us, and we become conscious of it afterward. There are some occasions when we direct the process consciously, and it may be more that 2% of the time, but I don't know. The brain is actually perfectly capable of carrying on without our conscious involvement. I've driven for miles without being conscious of it (or barely conscious of it) - sometimes consciousness gets in the way of good thought.

[LaMont Cranston]

Bruce Burleson, I get what you're talking about. There have been times when I'm driving, doing gardening or whatever where it feels like I'm just experiencing (or whatever we want to call it). At some point, I can be aware of a thought (i.e. I'm hungry, or I want to go to the store today). It still doesn't diminish the fact (that nobody has wanted to deny so far) that we experience whatever it is that we experience in present time.

It also appears that some people are more conscious than others, and our consciousness can and does change all the time. I have known people and heard about others who genuinely appear to have higher consciousness/heightened awareness. I realize that some people consider this to be woo, but I've seen and experienced enough of it that I accept it as part of reality.

If the brain usually does the work and we experience it afterward, does that mean we experience it in the future? I'd say that we are still experiencing in present time, here and now. We also might consider why it would be that we go in and out of consciousness. Is that a decision we make? Is there a consciousness switch in our heads?

[Dennis Campbell]

How can you "choose your thoughts before you have them?" That poll premise makes no sense to me. Suggest a better title. Cannot respond to it as it is. Did the tree fall down in the forest before it was there?

Dennis

[Bruce Burleson]

How can you "choose your thoughts before you have them?" That poll premise makes no sense to me.

Dennis

Yeah, I think that was Surendra's point. Of course, you know Surendra - he's SC of SH.