BM Brain Theory vs. Neuroscience

Post Reply
User avatar
GrahamH
Posts: 921
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:29 pm
Location: South coast, UK
Contact:

Re: BM Brain Theory vs. Neuroscience

Post by GrahamH » Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:17 pm

Little Idiot wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:...
Listen to yourself in the above quote! You are offering the metaphysical position as a reasonable explanation for the metaphysical position!

There is no metaphysical position!
Little Idiot wrote:WTF? dont you mean 'I think your metaphysical position is wrong' or something like that?
I think he means that to take a position you must first have somewhere to stand.

We have experience, agreed?
We have subjective experience, agreed?
We experience our own thoughts and imaginations as ideas in our own mind, agreed?
We only know our experience of the physical world as content of our mind, agreed?
We talk about 'experience' and we recognise certain events as 'experiences', so, in the R1 folk psychology sense, we 'have experiences' We have information about experience that leads us to thinking about 'what its like' etc

'Experience' has an implicit subject.

'Own thoughts' and 'own mind' are tricky. Mind does not seem to be a unitary thing. It has parts, many unpercieved and unknown parts. We have experiences of thoughts, but we don't experience forming them. I think this is a problem for your naive model. It isn't 'the observer' that does the thinking/knowing etc.

We might say experience is a content of mind, or that knowledge that there is experience taking place is content of mind. Those are not necessarily the same thing. Perhaps 'experience' is merely knowledge that something particular is happening in the brain?

I don't think there is a SimWorld model of the world inside a mind that a mental observer inhabits and experiences.

I don;t think any of this gives you a firm place to stand and take a position. You don;t claim that your mind is the source of your experiences, do you? I think you invoke an unknown BM to do that for you, outside your subjective that you have such confidence in.

User avatar
Little Idiot
Posts: 417
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:09 am
About me: I really am a Physics teacher and tutor to undergraduate level, honestly!
Location: On a stairway to heaven
Contact:

Re: BM Brain Theory vs. Neuroscience

Post by Little Idiot » Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:17 pm

GrahamH wrote:
Little Idiot wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:...
Listen to yourself in the above quote! You are offering the metaphysical position as a reasonable explanation for the metaphysical position!

There is no metaphysical position!
Little Idiot wrote:WTF? dont you mean 'I think your metaphysical position is wrong' or something like that?
I think he means that to take a position you must first have somewhere to stand.

We have experience, agreed?
We have subjective experience, agreed?
We experience our own thoughts and imaginations as ideas in our own mind, agreed?
We only know our experience of the physical world as content of our mind, agreed?
We talk about 'experience' and we recognise certain events as 'experiences', so, in the R1 folk psychology sense, we 'have experiences' We have information about experience that leads us to thinking about 'what its like' etc

'Experience' has an implicit subject.
So we have experiences only in an R1 sense, but its these very experiences you guys want to use to verify your empirical knowledge - if we dont have experiences in R2, then how do we observe our empirical evidence?
What is a scientific investigation without the observation of the results - ie the experience needs to confirm the hypothesis. A few posts ago I was defending against the argument all we know is empirical, ie experience. Now you are denyiong that there is any experience outside R1 folk psychology?
'Own thoughts' and 'own mind' are tricky. Mind does not seem to be a unitary thing. It has parts, many unpercieved and unknown parts. We have experiences of thoughts, but we don't experience forming them. I think this is a problem for your naive model. It isn't 'the observer' that does the thinking/knowing etc.
My car is not a unitary thing, it has many parts some of which are unknown to me. I dont experience the vapourisation of petrol prior to ignition. But I can drive.
The mind is not unitary, and includes subconscious activity, sure. But I know and create thoughts by its action, both consciously and unconsciously. And I experience them; demonstrate to your self - think of a visualization of a red square, and it is experienced. QED. Thats the 'problem' solved for my model i think?

We might say experience is a content of mind, or that knowledge that there is experience taking place is content of mind. Those are not necessarily the same thing. Perhaps 'experience' is merely knowledge that something particular is happening in the brain?

I don't think there is a SimWorld model of the world inside a mind that a mental observer inhabits and experiences.
I dont suggest a simworld where there is a mental copy of the external world, and I experience this copy.
The external world is only external to the body.
The body and world are internal to the mind. The mental experience IS ALL I can or do experience; it IS my experienced world, it IS the physical world external to the body.
I don;t think any of this gives you a firm place to stand and take a position. You don;t claim that your mind is the source of your experiences, do you? I think you invoke an unknown BM to do that for you, outside your subjective that you have such confidence in.
The BM is the source of the 'original data' but the individual mind is responsible for the construction of the experience. The experience of a tree which I see is mind made, made by my mind. The experienced tree (that I experience) is in my mind, if you want to trace 'how does something existing independent of my mind interact with my mind to cause my experience of it?' then the answer is that the tree (not my experience of it) is in the 'original data' presented to my mind by BM. So in that sense the BM is the originator of the unexperienced tree, but my individual mind is the constructor of my experience of the tree.
If I am not there to look (or listen), I dont experience the tree, it is not in my experience, but it is still in the forest by virtue of BM.
An advanced intellect can consider fairly the merits of an idea when the idea is not its own.
An advanced personality considers the ego to be an ugly thing, and none more so that its own.
An advanced mind grows satiated with experience and starts to wonder 'why?'

SpeedOfSound
Posts: 668
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:05 am
Contact:

Re: BM Brain Theory vs. Neuroscience

Post by SpeedOfSound » Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:29 pm

Little Idiot wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:
The Dagda wrote:I don't think Little idiot is going to get much out of Penrose's work, at least nothing scientific.
I was hoping he would at least understand Godel and Tarski. That all happens in the first 20 minutes. I am having a great deal of trouble listening to where Penrose goes next with the result.
Godel shows a formal symbolic language can be used to create 'truth statements' which are true, (created in that language) that can not be proved by that language. Right?

P1. There are statements in all symbolic languages which are not provable in that language.
P2. But humans can tell that they are true.
C1. Computation based on a formal languages can never fully imitate human understanding.
That's the basics. But computers like humans are not limited to that kind of computation except at the hardware level.
Favorite quote:
lifegazer says "Now, the only way to proceed to claim that brains create experience, is to believe that real brains exist (we certainly cannot study them). And if a scientist does this, he transcends the barriers of both science and metaphysics."

SpeedOfSound
Posts: 668
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:05 am
Contact:

Re: BM Brain Theory vs. Neuroscience

Post by SpeedOfSound » Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:36 pm

Little Idiot wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:...
Listen to yourself in the above quote! You are offering the metaphysical position as a reasonable explanation for the metaphysical position!

There is no metaphysical position!
Little Idiot wrote:WTF? dont you mean 'I think your metaphysical position is wrong' or something like that?
I think he means that to take a position you must first have somewhere to stand.

We have experience, agreed?
We have subjective experience, agreed?
We experience our own thoughts and imaginations as ideas in our own mind, agreed?
We only know our experience of the physical world as content of our mind, agreed?
All of those things are R1 thinking and subjective to error and further investigation. Which is what philsloppers should be doing instead of pretending that phrases like 'all mental' or 'we only ever know the contents of our mind' have any meaning whatever.

In other words, instead of confusing the issue y'all should be trying to straighten it out.
Favorite quote:
lifegazer says "Now, the only way to proceed to claim that brains create experience, is to believe that real brains exist (we certainly cannot study them). And if a scientist does this, he transcends the barriers of both science and metaphysics."

User avatar
GrahamH
Posts: 921
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:29 pm
Location: South coast, UK
Contact:

Re: BM Brain Theory vs. Neuroscience

Post by GrahamH » Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:40 pm

Little Idiot wrote:
GrahamH wrote:We talk about 'experience' and we recognise certain events as 'experiences', so, in the R1 folk psychology sense, we 'have experiences' We have information about experience that leads us to thinking about 'what its like' etc

'Experience' has an implicit subject.
So we have experiences only in an R1 sense, but its these very experiences you guys want to use to verify your empirical knowledge - if we dont have experiences in R2, then how do we observe our empirical evidence?
What is a scientific investigation without the observation of the results - ie the experience needs to confirm the hypothesis. A few posts ago I was defending against the argument all we know is empirical, ie experience. Now you are denyiong that there is any experience outside R1 folk psychology?
No. I'm suggesting the nature of 'what we 'know as experience' is not as it seems in the R1 sense. Just as with many R1 issues, we have to delve deeper and apply reason in R2 to see beyond the surface of things. In doing so we need to check with observation, carefully managed to minimise errors.
Little Idiot wrote:
GrahamH wrote: 'Own thoughts' and 'own mind' are tricky. Mind does not seem to be a unitary thing. It has parts, many unpercieved and unknown parts. We have experiences of thoughts, but we don't experience forming them. I think this is a problem for your naive model. It isn't 'the observer' that does the thinking/knowing etc.
My car is not a unitary thing, it has many parts some of which are unknown to me. I dont experience the vapourisation of petrol prior to ignition. But I can drive.
The mind is not unitary, and includes subconscious activity, sure. But I know and create thoughts by its action, both consciously and unconsciously. And I experience them; demonstrate to your self - think of a visualization of a red square, and it is experienced. QED. Thats the 'problem' solved for my model i think?
Hardly! You asked something to give you an experience. It wasn't your subjective self that provided. You might call it 'the subconscious'. Whatever you call it it is outside your subjective bubble. The same something might have answered if I had prompted you to visualise a red square.
Little Idiot wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
We might say experience is a content of mind, or that knowledge that there is experience taking place is content of mind. Those are not necessarily the same thing. Perhaps 'experience' is merely knowledge that something particular is happening in the brain?

I don't think there is a SimWorld model of the world inside a mind that a mental observer inhabits and experiences.
I dont suggest a simworld where there is a mental copy of the external world, and I experience this copy.
The external world is only external to the body.
The body and world are internal to the mind. The mental experience IS ALL I can or do experience; it IS my experienced world, it IS the physical world external to the body.
The external world, whatever it is that instigates experience, is external to the subjective bubble.
Little Idiot wrote:
GrahamH wrote: I don't think any of this gives you a firm place to stand and take a position. You don;t claim that your mind is the source of your experiences, do you? I think you invoke an unknown BM to do that for you, outside your subjective that you have such confidence in.
The BM is the source of the 'original data' but the individual mind is responsible for the construction of the experience. The experience of a tree which I see is mind made, made by my mind. The experienced tree (that I experience) is in my mind, if you want to trace 'how does something existing independent of my mind interact with my mind to cause my experience of it?' then the answer is that the tree (not my experience of it) is in the 'original data' presented to my mind by BM. So in that sense the BM is the originator of the unexperienced tree, but my individual mind is the constructor of my experience of the tree.
If I am not there to look (or listen), I dont experience the tree, it is not in my experience, but it is still in the forest by virtue of BM.
Do you experience the 'construction of experience'? Of course not. That is not included in your subjective. Only the result of it is, in any sense 'inside'. Something associated with you does something to take tree data and produce 'experience, but your 'subjective experiencer' is totally blind to it and it may not be 'mental'.

If BM originates unexperienced trees then the tree is not inside your mind.

SpeedOfSound
Posts: 668
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:05 am
Contact:

Re: BM Brain Theory vs. Neuroscience

Post by SpeedOfSound » Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:45 am

GrahamH wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:...
Listen to yourself in the above quote! You are offering the metaphysical position as a reasonable explanation for the metaphysical position!

There is no metaphysical position!
Little Idiot wrote:WTF? dont you mean 'I think your metaphysical position is wrong' or something like that?
I think he means that to take a position you must first have somewhere to stand.
For the record that is what I meant.
Favorite quote:
lifegazer says "Now, the only way to proceed to claim that brains create experience, is to believe that real brains exist (we certainly cannot study them). And if a scientist does this, he transcends the barriers of both science and metaphysics."

SpeedOfSound
Posts: 668
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:05 am
Contact:

Re: BM Brain Theory vs. Neuroscience

Post by SpeedOfSound » Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:13 am

Little Idiot wrote:So we have experiences only in an R1 sense, but its these very experiences you guys want to use to verify your empirical knowledge - if we dont have experiences in R2, then how do we observe our empirical evidence?
What is a scientific investigation without the observation of the results - ie the experience needs to confirm the hypothesis.
This here is but one example of what I call The Strange CosmoCon aggravating Thingy SCaT.

(For people not familiar with CosmoCon it means the Cosmic Consciousness crowd as a whole. Panpsychists, C in the atoms, C as the source of universe, mentalists etc. )

This is where we are talking about science of C or knowledge from R2 about C and you bring up something about our science is knowledge is from observation using C.

This is the Purest Stink of sloppy philosophy, Philosloppy. Don't fucking do it!

R1/R2 are types of knowledge. They aren't 'realities'. You don't go and do some observing in R1 and then teleport over to R2 and observe some more. You accept the types of knowledge as a way to talk about the knowledge. Period.

When we are talking about R1/R2 knowledge of the brain you don't get to start sprinkling SCaT all over the fucking discussion by bringing up that we get knowledge from the thing we are trying to illuminate with the knowledge.

Not if you want to be taken seriously.
Last edited by SpeedOfSound on Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Favorite quote:
lifegazer says "Now, the only way to proceed to claim that brains create experience, is to believe that real brains exist (we certainly cannot study them). And if a scientist does this, he transcends the barriers of both science and metaphysics."

SpeedOfSound
Posts: 668
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:05 am
Contact:

Re: BM Brain Theory vs. Neuroscience

Post by SpeedOfSound » Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:26 am

GrahamH wrote:We talk about 'experience' and we recognise certain events as 'experiences', so, in the R1 folk psychology sense, we 'have experiences' We have information about experience that leads us to thinking about 'what its like' etc

'Experience' has an implicit subject.
Little Idiot wrote:So we have experiences only in an R1 sense, but its these very experiences you guys want to use to verify your empirical knowledge - if we dont have experiences in R2, then how do we observe our empirical evidence?
What is a scientific investigation without the observation of the results - ie the experience needs to confirm the hypothesis. A few posts ago I was defending against the argument all we know is empirical, ie experience. Now you are denyiong that there is any experience outside R1 folk psychology?
GrahamH wrote:No. I'm suggesting the nature of 'what we 'know as experience' is not as it seems in the R1 sense. Just as with many R1 issues, we have to delve deeper and apply reason in R2 to see beyond the surface of things. In doing so we need to check with observation, carefully managed to minimise errors.
This was the whole point of laying R1 and R2 the way I did. It make it a little easier to keep the category jumping to a minimum.

R1 is not evidence or tested knowledge. It is however a source of the things we all want to explain. Our R1 ideas of experience for instance. Or what a flame is.

R2, in my opinion, is the only way to explain any of it. But that is just an opinion based on the useful explanations I have thus far found and the fact that I have seen none other valid source of explanations. Yet. Not holding my breath.

Philosophy, not metaphysics, is a useful tool. It can dig into our R1 knowledge and illuminate how the concepts and words connect or where they come from. I like Wittgenstein and Minsky and guys like that. They dig into the meanings and discuss even what meanings are and how real they are.

Bad philosophy draws without definition from R1 and without shame from R2 and makes conclusions that are metaphysical.

This is where you live LittleIdiot.

Good philosophy painstakingly analyzes R1 and confidently draws from R2 to make solid ground upon which arguments are waged.

When people like Dennett say that C or qualia do not exist they mean that the sloppy philosophy ideas about them do not exist. That's all they mean.

I hope this clears things up a little.

Oh! Almost forgot. Metaphysics has no basis anywhere that I can see. At least not yet.
Favorite quote:
lifegazer says "Now, the only way to proceed to claim that brains create experience, is to believe that real brains exist (we certainly cannot study them). And if a scientist does this, he transcends the barriers of both science and metaphysics."

User avatar
The Dagda
Posts: 180
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:24 pm
About me: I am mighty!
Contact:

Re: BM Brain Theory vs. Neuroscience

Post by The Dagda » Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:27 am

SpeedOfSound wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
Oh! Almost forgot. Metaphysics has no basis anywhere that I can see. At least not yet.
It has a basis in logic, and this argument has a basis in science, something which LI refuses to acknowledge it seems. Why attack something that has no basis and is axiomatic arm waving? Why indeed...

I recommend The Three Fold Cord by Hillary Putnam. It's not so much his philosophy it's his detailed explanation of the theory and history of mind that makes it well worth a read, if not for the layman. It's probably intermediate level, for those with some understanding of mind body issues, but you don't have to be an expert or have studied it to a degree level.
What is the relationship between our perceptions and reality? What is the relationship between the mind and the body? These are questions with which philosophers have grappled for centuries, and they are topics of considerable contemporary debate as well. Hilary Putnam has approached the divisions between perception and reality and between mind and body with great creativity throughout his career. Now, in The Threefold Cord: Mind, Body, and World, he expounds upon these issues, elucidating both the strengths and weaknesses of current schools of thought. With his characteristic wit and acuity, Putnam offers refreshing solutions to some of philosophy's most vexing problems. Putnam first examines the problem of realism: Is objective truth possible? He acknowledges the deep impasse between empirical and idealist approaches to this question, critiquing them both, however, by highlighting the false assumption they share, that we cannot perceive the world directly. Drawing on the work of J. L. Austin and William James, Putnam develops a subtle and creative alternative, which he calls "natural realism". The second part of the book explores the mind-body question: Is the mind independent of our interactions with the physical world? Again, Putnam critically assesses two sharply antithetical contemporary approaches and finds them both lacking. The Threefold Cord shows the entire mind-body debate to be miscast and draws on the later work of Wittgenstein, once more advancing original views on perception and thought and their relationship with both the body and the external world. Finally, Putnam takes up two related problems -- the role of causality in human behavior and whether thoughts and sensations have an "existence" all their own.
http://ebooks.ebookmall.com/ebook/139755-ebook.htm

Compared to this work anyone waving arms at this problem and not referring to where we actually are in science is easy to dismiss. Start here and with Dennets books and then proceed. It wont tell you how to phrase your argument, but it will tell you why certain arguments are considered worthless. And will give you good groundwork on which to build a "theory" of mind.
Last edited by The Dagda on Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Religion and science are like oil and water, you can't expect to mix them and come up with a solution."

Me in one of my more lucid moments. 2004

SpeedOfSound
Posts: 668
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:05 am
Contact:

Re: BM Brain Theory vs. Neuroscience

Post by SpeedOfSound » Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:37 am

The Dagda wrote:
http://www.rationalia.com/forum/posting ... 8&p=401902

Compared to this work anyone waving arms at this problem and not referring to where we actually are in science is easy to dismiss. Start here and with Dennets books and then proceed. It wont tell you how to phrase your argument, but it will tell you why certain arguments are considered worthless.
Hey thanks for the clue. Your link is the edit link and doesn't work. Let me give this a read. Problem I have, is that philosophy is something I do not have much time for. NS is my thing to do. I rely on and trust you guys for illumination in philosophy.

BTW. I have, in the last days, come to something new about how I am going to deal with this mess on consciousness explanations and the HP. I may do a bit of reversing my previous statements and opinions. I have a feeling that I have been lead down the rabbit hole by sloppy-osophers.
Favorite quote:
lifegazer says "Now, the only way to proceed to claim that brains create experience, is to believe that real brains exist (we certainly cannot study them). And if a scientist does this, he transcends the barriers of both science and metaphysics."

User avatar
The Dagda
Posts: 180
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:24 pm
About me: I am mighty!
Contact:

Re: BM Brain Theory vs. Neuroscience

Post by The Dagda » Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:47 am

SpeedOfSound wrote:
The Dagda wrote:Image[/img]

http://www.rationalia.com/forum/posting ... 8&p=401902

Compared to this work anyone waving arms at this problem and not referring to where we actually are in science is easy to dismiss. Start here and with Dennets books and then proceed. It wont tell you how to phrase your argument, but it will tell you why certain arguments are considered worthless.
Hey thanks for the clue. Your link is the edit link and doesn't work. Let me give this a read. Problem I have, is that philosophy is something I do not have much time for. NS is my thing to do. I rely on and trust you guys for illumination in philosophy.

BTW. I have, in the last days, come to something new about how I am going to deal with this mess on consciousness explanations and the HP. I may do a bit of reversing my previous statements and opinions. I have a feeling that I have been lead down the rabbit hole by sloppy-osophers.
Fixed his theory of multirealisability is particularly interesting.


Philosophy of mind
[edit] Multiple realizability
Image
An illustration of multiple realizability. M stands for mental and P stands for physical. It can be seen that more than one P can instantiate one M, but not vice versa. Causal relations between states are represented by the arrows (M1 goes to M2, etc.)

Putnam's best-known work concerns philosophy of mind. His most noted original contributions to that field came in several key papers published in the late 1960s that set out the hypothesis of multiple realizability.[22] In these papers, Putnam argues that, contrary to the famous claim of the type-identity theory, it is not necessarily true that "Pain is identical to C-fibre firing." Pain, according to Putnam's papers, may correspond to utterly different physical states of the nervous system in different organisms, and yet they all experience the same mental state of "being in pain".

Putnam cited examples from the animal kingdom to illustrate his thesis. He asked whether it was likely that the brain structures of diverse types of animals realize pain, or other mental states, the same way. If they do not share the same brain structures, they cannot share the same mental states and properties. The answer to this puzzle had to be that mental states were realized by different physical states in different species. Putnam then took his argument a step further, asking about such things as the nervous systems of alien beings, artificially intelligent robots and other silicon-based life forms. These hypothetical entities, he contended, should not be considered incapable of experiencing pain just because they lack the same neurochemistry as humans. Putnam concluded that type-identity theorists had been making an "ambitious" and "highly implausible" conjecture which could be disproven with one example of multiple realizability.[23] This argument is sometimes referred to as the "likelihood argument".[22]

Putnam formulated a complementary argument based on what he called "functional isomorphism". He defined the concept in these terms: "Two systems are functionally isomorphic if 'there is a correspondence between the states of one and the states of the other that preserves functional relations'." In the case of computers, two machines are functionally isomorphic if and only if the sequential relations among states in the first are exactly mirrored by the sequential relations among states in the other. Therefore, a computer made out of silicon chips and a computer made out of cogs and wheels can be functionally isomorphic but constitutionally diverse. Functional isomorphism implies multiple realizability.[23] This argument is sometimes referred to as an "a priori argument".[22]

Jerry Fodor, Putnam, and others noted that, along with being an effective argument against type-identity theories, multiple realizability implies that any low-level explanation of higher-level mental phenomena is insufficiently abstract and general.[23][24][25] Functionalism, which identifies mental kinds with functional kinds that are characterized exclusively in terms of causes and effects, abstracts from the level of microphysics, and therefore seemed to be a better explanation of the relation between mind and body. In fact, there are many functional kinds, such as mousetraps, software and bookshelves, which are multiply realized at the physical level.[23]
[edit] Machine state functionalism
A Turing machine can be visualized as an infinite tape of slots that are written or erased one at a time, with the choice of action determined by a "state". According to Putnam's machine-state functionalism, the notions of state in an abstract computer and mental state are essentially the same.

The first formulation of such a functionalist theory was put forth by Putnam himself. This formulation, which is now called "machine-state functionalism", was inspired by analogies noted by Putnam and others between the mind and theoretical "Turing machines" capable of computing any given algorithm.[26]

In non-technical terms, a Turing machine can be visualized as an infinitely long tape divided into squares (the memory) with a box-shaped scanning device that sits over and scans one square of the memory at a time. Each square is either blank (B) or has a 1 written on it. These are the inputs to the machine. The possible outputs are:

* Halt: Do nothing.
* R: move one square to the right.
* L: move one square to the left.
* B: erase whatever is on the square.
* 1: erase whatever is on the square and print a 1.

A simple example of a Turing machine which writes out the sequence '111' after scanning three blank squares and then stopping is specified by the following machine table:
State 1 State 2 State 3
B write 1; stay in state 1 write 1; stay in state 2 write 1; stay in state 3
1 go right; go to state 2 go right; go to state 3 [halt]

This table states that if the machine is in state one and scans a blank square (B), it will print a 1 and remain in state one. If it is in state one and reads a 1, it will move one square to the right and also go into state two. If it is in state two and reads a B, it will print a 1 and stay in state two. If it's in state two and reads a 1, it will move one square to the right and go into state three. Finally, if it is in state three and reads a B, it prints a 1 and remains in state three.[27]

The point, for functionalism, is the nature of the "states" of the Turing machine. Each state can be defined in terms of its relations to the other states and to the inputs and outputs. State one, for example, is simply the state in which the machine, if it reads a B, writes a 1 and stays in that state, and in which, if it reads a 1, it moves one square to the right and goes into a different state. This is the functional definition of state one; it is its causal role in the overall system. The details of how it accomplishes what it accomplishes and of its material constitution are completely irrelevant.

According to machine-state functionalism, the nature of a mental state is just like the nature of the automaton states described above. Just as "state one" simply is the state in which, given an input B, such-and-such happens, so being in pain is the state which disposes one to cry "ouch", become distracted, wonder what the cause is, and so forth.[28]
"Religion and science are like oil and water, you can't expect to mix them and come up with a solution."

Me in one of my more lucid moments. 2004

SpeedOfSound
Posts: 668
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:05 am
Contact:

Re: BM Brain Theory vs. Neuroscience

Post by SpeedOfSound » Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:00 am

The Dagda wrote:...Putnam
Oh Yes!! "functional isomorphism" is similar to something I came up with that I was calling ontological depth.

This sort of thing is well supported by evidence in NS. Edelman in particular gets way into degeneracy in neural nets and it's implications.

I call the Pink Quale for instance, ontologically shallow. I have claimed that your Pink must be the same as mine. In spite of the fact that a brain scan of us both experiencing it would be different in almost infinite detail. But there would be these shallow common features and it is these features that make it Pink.
Favorite quote:
lifegazer says "Now, the only way to proceed to claim that brains create experience, is to believe that real brains exist (we certainly cannot study them). And if a scientist does this, he transcends the barriers of both science and metaphysics."

User avatar
The Dagda
Posts: 180
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:24 pm
About me: I am mighty!
Contact:

Re: BM Brain Theory vs. Neuroscience

Post by The Dagda » Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:07 am

SpeedOfSound wrote:
The Dagda wrote:...Putnam
Oh Yes!! "functional isomorphism" is similar to something I came up with that I was calling ontological depth.

This sort of thing is well supported by evidence in NS. Edelman in particular gets way into degeneracy in neural nets and it's implications.

I call the Pink Quale for instance, ontologically shallow. I have claimed that your Pink must be the same as mine. In spite of the fact that a brain scan of us both experiencing it would be different in almost infinite detail. But there would be these shallow common features and it is these features that make it Pink.
Finally some reference to where the field is not where the fairies are!

I might start a thread about this later so as not to tangent this thread too much. Or you could.

EDIT:

Often philosophers are guilty of being stuck in the 20th century or worse the 19th such as on issues of free will, but this fortunately is not an area where this is even remotely so. The hard problem is very much a science concern and a philosophy concern that is bang on 2010.
Last edited by The Dagda on Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Religion and science are like oil and water, you can't expect to mix them and come up with a solution."

Me in one of my more lucid moments. 2004

SpeedOfSound
Posts: 668
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:05 am
Contact:

Re: BM Brain Theory vs. Neuroscience

Post by SpeedOfSound » Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:09 am

The Dagda wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:
The Dagda wrote:...Putnam
Oh Yes!! "functional isomorphism" is similar to something I came up with that I was calling ontological depth.

This sort of thing is well supported by evidence in NS. Edelman in particular gets way into degeneracy in neural nets and it's implications.

I call the Pink Quale for instance, ontologically shallow. I have claimed that your Pink must be the same as mine. In spite of the fact that a brain scan of us both experiencing it would be different in almost infinite detail. But there would be these shallow common features and it is these features that make it Pink.
Finally some reference to where the field is not where the fairies are!

I might start a thread about this later so as not to tangent this thread too much. Or you could.
I would love it I could get you to do the work of starting the thread. :biggrin:
Favorite quote:
lifegazer says "Now, the only way to proceed to claim that brains create experience, is to believe that real brains exist (we certainly cannot study them). And if a scientist does this, he transcends the barriers of both science and metaphysics."

User avatar
The Dagda
Posts: 180
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:24 pm
About me: I am mighty!
Contact:

Re: BM Brain Theory vs. Neuroscience

Post by The Dagda » Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:10 am

SpeedOfSound wrote:
The Dagda wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:
The Dagda wrote:...Putnam
Oh Yes!! "functional isomorphism" is similar to something I came up with that I was calling ontological depth.

This sort of thing is well supported by evidence in NS. Edelman in particular gets way into degeneracy in neural nets and it's implications.

I call the Pink Quale for instance, ontologically shallow. I have claimed that your Pink must be the same as mine. In spite of the fact that a brain scan of us both experiencing it would be different in almost infinite detail. But there would be these shallow common features and it is these features that make it Pink.
Finally some reference to where the field is not where the fairies are!

I might start a thread about this later so as not to tangent this thread too much. Or you could.
I would love it I could get you to do the work of starting the thread. :biggrin:
Later I have to "hunt some orc".
"Religion and science are like oil and water, you can't expect to mix them and come up with a solution."

Me in one of my more lucid moments. 2004

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests