Does porn exploit women and is it abusive and misogynistic?

[Daedalus]

When an industry is forced into the criminal sphere then the opportunity for abuse and exploitation skyrockets.
Hard to draw general conclusions without looking at each situation both from the girl's situation and how the producer/photog/videographer handles his models.

Prostitution is different category and a different decision from a health standpoint both physical and mental.

These apparently are girls working in the nude modelling industry and perhaps more and they are having the same sort of conversation. Worth a read.

http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=895702

I think there's a huge difference between modeling nude, and actually fucking on camera, both in terms of the industry, public perception, and just the work itself.

[macdoc]

Exactly but where is the line drawn on erotica and porn.......even the models themselves debate the issue if you read the modelmayhem thread.

Public perception in Kansas is different than Japan or Manhattan.

Sex work could be virtual or in person. Lots of fuzzy edges in this.

Goal I think is to take off some of the stigmata, create a safe environment and get rid of the criminal element as far as possible.
Girls and boys engaged in the various aspects would in my view have the final word.

[Daedalus]

Exactly but where is the line drawn on erotica and porn.......even the models themselves debate the issue if you read the modelmayhem thread.

Public perception in Kansas is different than Japan or Manhattan.

Sex work could be virtual or in person. Lots of fuzzy edges in this.

Goal I think is to take off some of the stigmata, create a safe environment and get rid of the criminal element as far as possible.
Girls and boys engaged in the various aspects would in my view have the final word.

I think there's a lot of objective debate to be had regarding perception of the worker and the work, but in terms of some tangibles to consider:

A nude model is... after all... a model. S/He isn't having to interact physically with anyone, is at no risk of STD, and from a physical standpoint it will generally be less than stressful.
A pornographic actor is actually having to fuck, get fucked, etc, and all that goes with it.
A... to go to a virtual example... phone-sex operator retains anonymity, doesn't have to worry about STD's, and again is not physically challenged.

There are some really huge clear differences between someone who has to decide if giving a guy a rimjob while another fucks him/her in the ass, and someone who may or may not be comfortable exposing their genitals.


Finally, while the people themselves have the last word on the experience, we should be careful to consider the position they're currently in, that their livelihood depends on how they're perceived from within and outside of their industry. No hooker gets work by looking miserable and put-upon, it's why the happy-hooker myth exists. People WANT to believe that this is a harmless and enjoyable thing.

I'd argue that, again, misogynistic and abusive doesn't fit, and even exploitative might be too far. Still, degrading, occasionally painful, socially disruptive (for the actor in the future), and risky? Yeah, that seems pretty straightforward.

[Daedalus]

Double penetration post

[Audley Strange]

from Greek pornographos "depicting prostitutes"

Which is in itself interesting because many of the models in the canon were prostitutes, thus it's meaning was probably altered by the intellectual classes, where it became synonymous with "obscenity" for a few centuries. In fact in the latter part of the 18th and 19th century those who were not having sex for money but posing naked for artists were considered prostitutes. Still there's a bunch of movies that depict prostitutes from "From Hell" to "The best little whorehouse in Texas." Which I doubt anyone would consider pornographic.

So it seems the word itself and public perceptions of it may well be part of the issue.

[Daedalus]

from Greek pornographos "depicting prostitutes"

Which is in itself interesting because many of the models in the canon were prostitutes, thus it's meaning was probably altered by the intellectual classes, where it became synonymous with "obscenity" for a few centuries. In fact in the latter part of the 18th and 19th century those who were not having sex for money but posing naked for artists were considered prostitutes. Still there's a bunch of movies that depict prostitutes from "From Hell" to "The best little whorehouse in Texas." Which I doubt anyone would consider pornographic.

So it seems the word itself and public perceptions of it may well be part of the issue.

Sure, although it's worth noting that in general it's a good reason not to call nudes pornography. By the same token, people having sex on camera are arguably prostitutes, and pornography is an exceptionally good term.

[macdoc]

For the same reason there are genres of fiction including erotic some of which is explicit.
Too much puritan still in the moral miasma - we need to go back to celebrating Saturnalia...

[Audley Strange]

from Greek pornographos "depicting prostitutes"

Which is in itself interesting because many of the models in the canon were prostitutes, thus it's meaning was probably altered by the intellectual classes, where it became synonymous with "obscenity" for a few centuries. In fact in the latter part of the 18th and 19th century those who were not having sex for money but posing naked for artists were considered prostitutes. Still there's a bunch of movies that depict prostitutes from "From Hell" to "The best little whorehouse in Texas." Which I doubt anyone would consider pornographic.

So it seems the word itself and public perceptions of it may well be part of the issue.

Sure, although it's worth noting that in general it's a good reason not to call nudes pornography. By the same token, people having sex on camera are arguably prostitutes, and pornography is an exceptionally good term.

Well some call it soft-core don't they? And only people getting paid to have sex on camera could be considered prostitutes and as we know a lot of people do it for fun. Which is why we have all these various additions.

I was more getting at the idea that porn and erotica are essentially the same thing only with some subjective snobbery attached. Now we have things like torture porn and food porn, has it become one of those meta words like fuck?

[Daedalus]

from Greek pornographos "depicting prostitutes"

Which is in itself interesting because many of the models in the canon were prostitutes, thus it's meaning was probably altered by the intellectual classes, where it became synonymous with "obscenity" for a few centuries. In fact in the latter part of the 18th and 19th century those who were not having sex for money but posing naked for artists were considered prostitutes. Still there's a bunch of movies that depict prostitutes from "From Hell" to "The best little whorehouse in Texas." Which I doubt anyone would consider pornographic.

So it seems the word itself and public perceptions of it may well be part of the issue.

Sure, although it's worth noting that in general it's a good reason not to call nudes pornography. By the same token, people having sex on camera are arguably prostitutes, and pornography is an exceptionally good term.

Well some call it soft-core don't they? And only people getting paid to have sex on camera could be considered prostitutes and as we know a lot of people do it for fun. Which is why we have all these various additions.

I was more getting at the idea that porn and erotica are essentially the same thing only with some subjective snobbery attached. Now we have things like torture porn and food porn, has it become one of those meta words like fuck?

Nah, softcore is just porn in which you don't see actual penetration.

[macdoc]

Porn has some pejorative aspect that erotica lacks. Hard to pin down and I don't think there is any subjective snobbery around it at all.
Broad brushing it all as porn smacks of puritanism.

[Daedalus]

Porn has some pejorative aspect that erotica lacks. Hard to pin down and I don't think there is any subjective snobbery around it at all.
Broad brushing it all as porn smacks of puritanism.

Sure, and I'd say that unless people are actually getting anatomical or hardcore, it probably isn't porn.

I really like the definition of porn introduced earlier, as "depicting prostitution". That seems like a workable definition that excludes anything even remotely artistic or merely erotic.

[Audley Strange]

Porn has some pejorative aspect that erotica lacks. Hard to pin down and I don't think there is any subjective snobbery around it at all.
Broad brushing it all as porn smacks of puritanism.

Yeah that's what I was I was trying to say. Porn was and is used as a pejorative term. You don't think that that porn in itself is commonly used to describe things that are low brow (I'm thinking for example of the Mommy-Porn label for the 50 shades books which some would consider erotica). Why is "The Story of O" considered Erotica yet 50 shades trashy porn? I'm not certain there is a an actual distinction other than subjective view of "what I find tasteless" which does boil down to snobbery.

I mean I may well be wrong, but I'd like to know if there is a specific distinction other than that.

[Daedalus]

Porn has some pejorative aspect that erotica lacks. Hard to pin down and I don't think there is any subjective snobbery around it at all.
Broad brushing it all as porn smacks of puritanism.

Yeah that's what I was I was trying to say. Porn was and is used as a pejorative term. You don't think that that porn in itself is commonly used to describe things that are low brow (I'm thinking for example of the Mommy-Porn label for the 50 shades books which some would consider erotica). Why is "The Story of O" considered Erotica yet 50 shades trashy porn? I'm not certain there is a an actual distinction other than subjective view of "what I find tasteless" which does boil down to snobbery.

I mean I may well be wrong, but I'd like to know if there is a specific distinction other than that.

Probably true, lets just ignore those definitions in favor of something more rigorous that we can all agree to. No reason to be bound by the whims of the hoi polloi after all.

[Audley Strange]

How about Sexual narratives?

[Daedalus]

How about Sexual narratives?

Sure... sexual narrative for the 50 shades type, maybe "erotica" for ones that might be art, and lets call fucking on camera or anatomical still porn.

Objections?
Suggestions?

Nude selfies from the more attractive members?