Conscription: State sponsored slavery?

[Jesus_of_Nazareth]

All the Jews "left alive" as skeletons at the end days of WWII were the result of allied disruptions of German supply lines, primarily by bombing the rail lines. When you have large detention camps and no means of resupply, what do you think would happen?

That probably also meant they ran out of gas.

mistakes happen.

BTW not denying that the Germans killed a lot of Jews during WWII, nor saying it was inadvertent - clearly not. But by then little option left. Irony being that the Anti-Jewish thing was one of the keys to the rise of the Nazis - but was also one of the keys to the downfall of Germany (you can't kill that many of your people, simply the cost in time and effort and materials is a waste - even before you calculate the lost production and boots on the ground (as well as some smarts) that the Jews could have provided. Could have tipped the balance, look at Israel and say that many of the Jews would have been very happy in a Nazi uniform - if only "the Jews" had been someone else. Like Palestinians. "I was only following orders - Oy Vey"

[Coito ergo sum]

The thing about WWII is that the allies were well fucking lucky that the Nazi's were insane because if you exclude the death camps the war would have been as pointless and stupid as the previous one.

The Allies went to war with the Nazis before we knew much at all about the vernichtunglagers.

Yes because of continued ignoring of reparations payments. If Hitler's Vernichtung had been metaphorical rather than literal the war would have been an ugly farce. I'm saying that because Hilter's gang turned out to be actual villains, everyone feels a bit better about it. Like it was necessary.

Did Germany give Europe much choice in the matter? I mean, they took over the Sudetenland and Czechoslovakia, they invaded Poland, they invaded Denmark, Holland, Belgium, France, and Norway. They invaded the balkans, and North Africa, and they started bombing the UK.

I'm not sure what is "unnecessary" about fighting that war under those circumstances.

Now, if you want to argue that in the long-view Europe guaranteed a Second World War by they way they fucked Germany up the ass after the First, well, a good argument can be made to that effect. That being said, by 1938, Germany was pretty much going to war, whether the rest of us liked it, or not.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Hitler planned to go to war from the day he accepted the Chancellorship. The rest of Europe could only resist or surrender.

[Tyrannical]

There was no real reason for WWII.
Hitler wanted to unify German cultured people into a unified country, and I don't see a real problem with that. But it could have been achieved through diplomatic means because the German people probably wanted it. Sure, the Austrian government might not have, but after a week or two of disagreement everyone fell into line. Do you really think Hitler wanted to occupy France? Hell, he wouldn't have killed the Jews if they just buggered off.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

There was no real reason for WWII.
Hitler wanted to unify German cultured people into a unified country, and I don't see a real problem with that. But it could have been achieved through diplomatic means because the German people probably wanted it. Sure, the Austrian government might not have, but after a week or two of disagreement everyone fell into line. Do you really think Hitler wanted to occupy France? Hell, he wouldn't have killed the Jews if they just buggered off.

You really need to read some history, mate. Hitler wanted to expand into the Ukraine, at a minimum.

[Jesus_of_Nazareth]

Did Germany give Europe much choice in the matter? I mean, they took over the Sudetenland and Czechoslovakia, they invaded Poland, they invaded Denmark, Holland, Belgium, France, and Norway. They invaded the balkans, and North Africa, and they started bombing the UK.

I'm not sure what is "unnecessary" about fighting that war under those circumstances.

They only invaded Denmark, Holland, Belgium, France, Norway, the balkans, North Africa, and started bombing the UK after war was declared....by us.

Would have made sense for both the French and the British to have backed Hitler in heading to Moscow - economically and possibly even militarily. The Countries in the East (and the Balkans)? well, who gives a shit.......think of the Oil . If he had won and still wanted to head West then we would have had a bigger problem, but odds are that he would have found us too useful economically to attack - and in a few years we (and him!) would have had nukes. We lived with Stalin etc having Nukes and half of Europe - the Nazis no different, except far more likely to tone down the fundy stuff simply for the economics. by then they would have had more land and resources than they knew what to do with.

[Ian]

A few thoughts on the future of military power as related to conscription…

Conscription has been a policy in decline around much of the world. It might be easy to attribute this to the nominally low public popularity of it, or to a general state of world peace, i.e. the Cold War is over, and the prospects for great-power conflicts have been rather dim for well over twenty years now. But I think technology is the real governing factor, even more than politics (and international politics in turn is shapes a great deal by technology, etc.). A little elaboration…

For much of the last five centuries, warfare has been defined by the invention of the ballistic projectile. Gunpowder and the ability to blast projectiles some distance away can create a lot of power, but this sort of technology is ultimately limited by its inaccuracy and limited range. As ballistic projectile weapons developed and became more powerful, ever-more massed armies of men were required to be fielded in order to project power with them, until the world saw the total-war formations of huge armies of men in the 19th and 20th Centuries.

But we’re at the dawn of an entirely new epoch of weaponry, one that has already begun to make ballistic projectiles and massed armies of troops as obsolete as gunpowder made swords obsolete around five centuries ago: the age of smart, precision ordinance. They first made their appearance on a few battlefields in the late 1960s and early 1970s, and they are increasingly dominating the course of warfare. As precision increases, so too will range (and speed) – all while the cost of using them remains remarkably low compared to the cost of fielding and protecting the spectacularly expensive late-generation weapons of the past.

So, in the more advanced militaries, manpower will continue to decline even when budgets remain constant. The US is the perfect example of this. And as military manpower requirements decline because of advancements in technology, the need for conscription declines as well.

There are of course some exceptions to this trend. Israel for example will remain a state with a small population with a need for a powerful military, so conscription policies are not likely to be cancelled there anytime soon. Russia also has a lot of geopolitical security requirements coupled with a death-spiral demographic problem, but there have been some mentions of the desire to end conscription, even though it shouldn’t be expected too soon.

Anyway, those are a few thoughts off the top of me head. I’ll be happy to refine or debate them.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

They only invaded Denmark, Holland, Belgium, France, Norway, the balkans, North Africa, and started bombing the UK after war was declared....by us.

Ah, you're an appeaser. Should have known.

[Tyrannical]

There was no real reason for WWII.
Hitler wanted to unify German cultured people into a unified country, and I don't see a real problem with that. But it could have been achieved through diplomatic means because the German people probably wanted it. Sure, the Austrian government might not have, but after a week or two of disagreement everyone fell into line. Do you really think Hitler wanted to occupy France? Hell, he wouldn't have killed the Jews if they just buggered off.

You really need to read some history, mate. Hitler wanted to expand into the Ukraine, at a minimum.

Meh, Europe has been such a hot bed of wars who knows who owns what? The US should have stayed out of European concerns.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

There was no real reason for WWII.
Hitler wanted to unify German cultured people into a unified country, and I don't see a real problem with that. But it could have been achieved through diplomatic means because the German people probably wanted it. Sure, the Austrian government might not have, but after a week or two of disagreement everyone fell into line. Do you really think Hitler wanted to occupy France? Hell, he wouldn't have killed the Jews if they just buggered off.

You really need to read some history, mate. Hitler wanted to expand into the Ukraine, at a minimum.

Meh, Europe has been such a hot bed of wars who knows who owns what? The US should have stayed out of European concerns.

Now I know you haven't done much reading.

[Traveler]

You can quit the military

Er. Not if you're drafted into war.

Your earlier statement, "I never considered entering..." suggests you were talking about voluntary enlistment, rather than being drafted.

...

And as 'Zilla stated earlier, you do not have to shoot.

Well, I'm talking about both. When I was a kid, people were being drafted into the Vietnam war. That informed my opinions about the military. I saw my male peers and how relieved they were when the draft was eliminated, and "all" they had to do was register with it. They were still terrified that they'd have to serve. I have many cousins who went into the military. I never understood it, for many, many reasons. I'm very independent. If I want to sleep in until 10, I don't want some superior officer tellling me I can't. I'm not comfortable with violence. I don't want to even think about shooting anyone. I don't want to see victims of violence. I'm sensitive. Some would say to an extreme. I'm an artist, with all that implies I suppose. If I were to see someone shot in front of me I'd probably be traumatized for life, and be one of the many, many soldiers dealing with post traumatic stress disorder.

I don't mean to dis' anyone who's in the military. I'm trying to explain (and apparently doing a piss poor job of it) why I never considered it a career possibility, and why I was terrified that they'd legalize the draft for women. I was against war. Remember, this was Vietnam. An unpopular war with questionable motives for our involvement. This was my preteen and teen years, when my opinions about war were being formed. I had no desire to serve a "war machine" or to risk being thrust into something against my will.

For me, personally, I'd have considered it slavery (as the OP asks). Someone else can boss me around and I have no recourse. Your mileage may vary.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

For most folks, it's just a job. There were 9 support people for every frontline soldier in the US Army in WWII. They rarely if ever saw live enemy troops who didn't have their hands on their heads. I volunteered to go to the jungle, as did everyone I met over there. True, this was not typical, but my job wasn't exactly typical either. But I never, in my 20 years active duty, met someone who would have considered it slavery. The black guys I worked with would have kicked your ass for claiming they'd volunteered for slavery.

And remember, this "slavery" in the US Army consisted of two years active duty. Even the Hebrews could keep their slaves for seven years.

[Tyrannical]

There was no real reason for WWII.
Hitler wanted to unify German cultured people into a unified country, and I don't see a real problem with that. But it could have been achieved through diplomatic means because the German people probably wanted it. Sure, the Austrian government might not have, but after a week or two of disagreement everyone fell into line. Do you really think Hitler wanted to occupy France? Hell, he wouldn't have killed the Jews if they just buggered off.

You really need to read some history, mate. Hitler wanted to expand into the Ukraine, at a minimum.

Meh, Europe has been such a hot bed of wars who knows who owns what? The US should have stayed out of European concerns.

Now I know you haven't done much reading.

Quality is not the same as quantity, especially if you constrain yourself to limited viewpoints. But regardless, neither WWI nor WWII were the United State's fight. We'd have been better off staying neutral so we could help negotiate a truce.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Nice slander, mate. I've done my homework, you haven't.

[Coito ergo sum]

I tend to agree with Tyrannical about World War 1.

That was a colonialist war between colonial powers, and as far as I can tell (I am willing to be educated, of course) I can't see any decided moral high ground on the part of the Brits or the French over the Germans or Austrians in that war. They were just continuing their old Napoleonic shuffling of the European deck and trading scraps of land, only in August 1914 the guns had gotten bigger and nastier than anyone had ever experienced before...

However, through 1914, 1915 and 1916, most Americans were against US entry into the war, horrified at the news and images of the barbaric trench warfare that had gripped Europe, and amazed that a civilized group of countries could descend into such murderous barbarity. Wilson was reelected in part because of a promise to keep us out of that war.

Germany shot itself in the foot by its submarine warfare and sinking our trading vessels. They were forced into doing that by the Brits, however, who were successfully blockading Germany. Through 1915 and 1916, though, the US's relationship with Germany, despite Germany's announcement of the area around the British Isles as open territory for them to sink trading vessels, even under neutral flags. Most Americans still wanted us to stay out of the war. In 1916 and 1917, Prez. Wilson was still trying to broker a peace between the Brits and the Germans, and the hope was for a peace through the League of Nations and a reconciliation that would not result in what actually happened after Germany got buttraped in the 1918 peace agreement.

The Yerpeeins created Hitler by the way WW1 was ended. Hitler served in the German army with distinction, and after the war his entire psyche was effected by the humiliation Germany endured. Had Wilson's reconciliation plan, or something like it, been adopted, Hitler likely would never have been in a position to lead a party at all, would likely never have wound up in jail after the Beer Hall Putsch and would likely never have written the prison-manifested Mein Kampf, and he likely would never have been heard of on the world stage.