Why does atheism so often include skepticism ...

[Elessarina]

But then - shit, if I had a quid for every time I've felt attacked, or just looked for the attack I'd be a damn sight wealthier than I am! Seriously Eless, what are we missing? What is it you wanted to talk about because I bet it's just folk being a bit dense and missing the point you're trying to talk about - I know I haven't a clue what it is right now.

You've not missing anything, I was thinking about starting this thread for days. I think it is because of the determination of some to dismiss everything as "woo" - to me the evidence for God is non existent but there are some things that fall into the category of "woo" that there is more evidence for than, for example, God but because we have, as yet, no logical explanation or full understanding for it it is dismissed as being under the same umbrella as God. Whereas as far as I am concerned the notion of God is easily explainable as a human invention etc. I understand that people want evidence for things, however I don't have a hard time accepting that there are some things that happen/exist/occur for which there can, at present, be no logical explanation. I don't think everyone who has a weird experience is a lunatic or that every weird experience is necessarily a failure on their part to properly understand the world around them. We can accept that the universe might be made of 10 or 11 dimensions and full of vibrating strings and 90% of space is dark matter..

Based on what ani said about ripping into people in the pub about the film - Finding a film scary is not the same as believing in God.. horror films are designed to prey on our fears. Yes I find the idea of some things scary..I don't know why.. it doesn't mean I am a fucking idiot who deserves ridicule and should be sneered at - I still don't believe in God, I am still atheist, I am still skeptical about most things, I still read science articles and so forth and accept the laws of physics and probability and so on and so forth... I just find that sort of stuff scary. Maybe because there is no explanantion for it and precisely because it is presented as something we can't understand.. I don't find slasher films scary or monster films or alien films or zombie films or vampire films.. the only things I find scary are things where you don't actually see anything...

[Deep Sea Isopod]

Instead of supernatural, could it be explained by a rent in the space-time continuum?
For example, my MiL, when walking to work one morning, said she saw someone running towards her, the slowed down right by her and appeared to climb over an invisible wall or fence. Further investigation showed there had been fields and a public footpath in that area decades ago, and there had been a style in that very spot.
Why would a ghost jump over a style? If there was some sort of disturbance in the space-time continuum, maybe that was a little snap-shot of history replaying?

I myself, have seen the silhoette of someone sitting in the cockpit of a de-commisioned aircraft when I know full well there was no one else around.
I put it down to a piece of history replaying itself.

I have now explained the unexplained.

[floppit]

Eless - I promise I'm not being deliberately obtuse but bearing in mind the above I still don't get why the answers aren't what you'd hoped for. I can't speak for anyone else but I actually really tried to think about what you'd said and why it would appear that way (not always wrongly either!). Skepticism is a word more often misused than used so I thought that it might help to be clearer how the word has morphed in recent years.

Being anti everything is fairly empty headed - I don't argue about ghosts because while I don't believe in them it's more a best guess than anything I've spent hours researching, same re god, my personal belief came as the result of some fairly basic thinking so I rarely bother to argue the case, nor would I buy a book on it! I'm a little more interested in experimental design, medicine, the brain and human behaviour so on those subjects, while a zillions miles off expert, I will at least engage in lively debate, read and attempt to learn.

It would be sheer impossibility to practice skeptical thought for every single idea, theory or evaluation - life's too short. I don't see anything wrong in acknowledging where I haven't bothered to go the whole mile and spend the time saved trying to get better at thinking well in subjects I enjoy more.

I think sometimes - (I don't have anyone here in mind) people can feel threatened that if they acknowledge or get interested in something which 'could' be connected to faith or that diverges from the purest of science it might mean they're slipping, getting caught up in something dangerous. I've no idea if that's all complete bollox and if it isn't I still don't really understand why it is the case.

Like I said, I'm pretty open about having an interest in sociology, psychology, even using meditation as a treatment - I don't dismiss any of them but nor do I see them as 'right', just interesting in a way that god isn't because there's a potential for really learning something.

[Elessarina]

Instead of supernatural, could it be explained by a rent in the space-time continuum?
For example, my MiL, when walking to work one morning, said she saw someone running towards her, the slowed down right by her and appeared to climb over an invisible wall or fence. Further investigation showed there had been fields and a public footpath in that area decades ago, and there had been a style in that very spot.
Why would a ghost jump over a style? If there was some sort of disturbance in the space-time continuum, maybe that was a little snap-shot of history replaying?

I myself, have seen the silhoette of someone sitting in the cockpit of a de-commisioned aircraft when I know full well there was no one else around.
I put it down to a piece of history replaying itself.

I have now explained the unexplained.

Well there you go, you see I was scared to say anything like that in case Ani just launched...

But yes.. tears in space time, interference from other dimensions.. etc etc

[Deep Sea Isopod]

Instead of supernatural, could it be explained by a rent in the space-time continuum?
For example, my MiL, when walking to work one morning, said she saw someone running towards her, the slowed down right by her and appeared to climb over an invisible wall or fence. Further investigation showed there had been fields and a public footpath in that area decades ago, and there had been a style in that very spot.
Why would a ghost jump over a style? If there was some sort of disturbance in the space-time continuum, maybe that was a little snap-shot of history replaying?

I myself, have seen the silhoette of someone sitting in the cockpit of a de-commisioned aircraft when I know full well there was no one else around.
I put it down to a piece of history replaying itself.

I have now explained the unexplained.

Well there you go, you see I was scared to say anything like that in case Ani just launched...

But yes.. tears in space time, interference from other dimensions.. etc etc

What do I win?

[Clinton Huxley]

It's possible, I guess, but I don't think I buy "interference from other dimensions" as an explanation for ghosts. If other dimensions could interfere with the ones we can perceive sufficiently to cause the materialisation of solid looking objects, you'd think that a) such things would happen more often and b) the phenomena would be replicable in the lab. IMO, such things come from the brain.

Hope the above is not construed as attacking anyone, is just a comment

As for the OP - I don't think it should be a surprise that atheism and skepticism go together. Atheists, generally speaking, seem to be more drawn to science than the "average" of the population, and science is organised skepticism (null hypothesis and all that)

[Deep Sea Isopod]

It's possible, I guess, but I don't think I buy "interference from other dimensions" as an explanation for ghosts. If other dimensions could interfere with the ones we can perceive sufficiently to cause the materialisation of solid looking objects, you'd think that a) such things would happen more often

And who says it doesn't? If a tree falls in the woods, and no one is nearby, does it make a sound?

[leo-rcc]

Not going into the woo factor here. The way I see it Atheism is a subset of skepticism. We hold off on accepting a claim for a supernatural deity until there is enough evidence to suggest the claim is warranted. Skepticism is much broader than that, it deals with all kinds of claims, and as I see it it is the best policy to remain skeptic on any topic that might have a serious impact on your life until there is sufficient evidence to make a decision one way or the other.

[Animavore]

I don't know what makes you think I'm going to lauch. You do realise i was drunk at the time of that incident?

Anyway. As for this...

Instead of supernatural, could it be explained by a rent in the space-time continuum?
For example, my MiL, when walking to work one morning, said she saw someone running towards her, the slowed down right by her and appeared to climb over an invisible wall or fence. Further investigation showed there had been fields and a public footpath in that area decades ago, and there had been a style in that very spot.
Why would a ghost jump over a style? If there was some sort of disturbance in the space-time continuum, maybe that was a little snap-shot of history replaying?

I myself, have seen the silhoette of someone sitting in the cockpit of a de-commisioned aircraft when I know full well there was no one else around.
I put it down to a piece of history replaying itself.

I have now explained the unexplained.

ARE YOU FOR FUCKING REAL???? A DISTURBANCE IN THE SPACE-TIME CONTINUUM? ONE THAT STICKS LOCALLY TO THE EARTH, ROTATES WITH IT AND IS AFFECTED BY ITS GRAVITY? WHAT ARE YOU FUCKING NUTS. SNARL. FOAM :pissed:

[Clinton Huxley]

It's possible, I guess, but I don't think I buy "interference from other dimensions" as an explanation for ghosts. If other dimensions could interfere with the ones we can perceive sufficiently to cause the materialisation of solid looking objects, you'd think that a) such things would happen more often

And who says it doesn't? If a tree falls in the woods, and no one is nearby, does it make a sound?

Well, 6 billion humans should notice a lot of things. I think it would be detectable in scientific instruments too.

The human brain is the most complex object in the known universe and I reckon one of its talents is the ability to pull the wool over its own eyes....

[Deep Sea Isopod]

I don't know what makes you think I'm going to lauch. You do realise i was drunk at the time of that incident?

Anyway. As for this...

Instead of supernatural, could it be explained by a rent in the space-time continuum?
For example, my MiL, when walking to work one morning, said she saw someone running towards her, the slowed down right by her and appeared to climb over an invisible wall or fence. Further investigation showed there had been fields and a public footpath in that area decades ago, and there had been a style in that very spot.
Why would a ghost jump over a style? If there was some sort of disturbance in the space-time continuum, maybe that was a little snap-shot of history replaying?

I myself, have seen the silhoette of someone sitting in the cockpit of a de-commisioned aircraft when I know full well there was no one else around.
I put it down to a piece of history replaying itself.

I have now explained the unexplained.

ARE YOU FOR FUCKING REAL???? A DISTURBANCE IN THE SPACE-TIME CONTINUUM? ONE THAT STICKS LOCALLY TO THE EARTH, ROTATES WITH IT AND IS AFFECTED BY ITS GRAVITY? WHAT ARE YOU FUCKING NUTS. SNARL. FOAM :pissed:

Yes, but I see it more as a blessing than a handicap.

It's possible, I guess, but I don't think I buy "interference from other dimensions" as an explanation for ghosts. If other dimensions could interfere with the ones we can perceive sufficiently to cause the materialisation of solid looking objects, you'd think that a) such things would happen more often

And who says it doesn't? If a tree falls in the woods, and no one is nearby, does it make a sound?

Well, 6 billion humans should notice a lot of things. I think it would be detectable in scientific instruments too.

The human brain is the most complex object in the known universe and I reckon one of its talents is the ability to pull the wool over its own eyes....

Actually, you've just made me think. I read somewhere about the human eye having a "blind spot" and the brain fills in the gap. Maybe the "ghost" is in the blind spot and the brain puts in an image with an "inclusion"

[Clinton Huxley]

One important lesson is, never trust your brain, it has its own evil agenda :twisted:

[Animavore]

Actually, you've just made me think. I read somewhere about the human eye having a "blind spot" and the brain fills in the gap. Maybe the "ghost" is in the blind spot and the brain puts in an image with an "inclusion"

This is very likely. I'm always seeing things. People or animals walking by, or jumping over walls or standing in windows only to look directly at them to find they're not there. I have never once put it down to a ghost or 'a disturbance in the space=time continuum', I've always assumed it was a trick of my mind.

[Deep Sea Isopod]

One important lesson is, never trust your brain, it has its own evil agenda :twisted:

It fits with the "I saw it in the corner of my eye, but when I looked there was nothing there."

[Clinton Huxley]

I've never witnessed any inexplicable phenomenon at all. No ghost sightings, no shadowy figures, no weird noises, vibrations or anything. Zilch, nada, absolute zero.