New York City is fining people for ignoring pronoun orders.

[pErvinalia]

I wonder what happens if a Spanish speaking gender fluid non-binary dipshit demands that Spanish only be spoken to "Zer" in gender neutral terms....

What if they weren't a dipshit?

Oh, so it's o.k. to misgender in Spanish? Just not in English.

Did I say that? Please show your working out.

Perhaps, like the constipated mathematician, he worked it out with a pencil...

Or maybe he was like the constipated treasurer, he couldn't budget...

[rachelbean]

Eff, it's not a matter of preference but of the nature of things,
Trans girls were born men but I call them 'sir' until they are operated and no longer men.

Why? How fucking hard is it just to call someone what they like? I don't get this way of thinking. Also, are checking people's genitals before you refer to them in the way they wish to be referred to? Because how else do you know?

No no. Not if they ask you to call them ma'am or zhe or she or whatever -- NYC considers that illegal, and will fine you. LOL.

If a pre-op tranny tells you to call it ma'am, then you better hop-to.

See this kind of thing is why I don't believe you are just arguing against the law, but rather have a problem with trans people that goes beyond that. You could have easily said "call them ma'am" but you chose to use "it" which is a way to dehumanise someone. It's ugly and unnecessary.

Do I think there should be laws on this kind of speech? No, I don't actually. But I'd rather see someone arguing against it in a way that doesn't use outlandish scenarios, insults and sarcastic demands, because that just makes me embarrassed to be on the same side of the debate.

[pErvinalia]

Well said, Rachel.

[Svartalf]

Eff, it's not a matter of preference but of the nature of things,
Trans girls were born men but I call them 'sir' until they are operated and no longer men.

Why? How fucking hard is it just to call someone what they like? I don't get this way of thinking. Also, are checking people's genitals before you refer to them in the way they wish to be referred to? Because how else do you know?
.

It may have to do with the fact that I know exactly ONE trans girl, and before she got operated, she dressed unisex, and had definitely masculine body language and general appearance, so I never could remember she was supposed to be a girl... so I basically see a guy and I go 'sir'... now that she got operated, for some reason, her voice has got feminine and I can remember. her body language though... I would still call her sir if seeing her from behind and not recognizing her.

[JimC]

We'd just say "G'day, cobber" which is non gender specific...

Or even "G'day, you old bastard..."

[Brian Peacock]

Erm, that's Mr Bastard to you.

[laklak]

I usually say something like "Da fuk you lookin at, asshole?"

[Scot Dutchy]

God van dommel!

[Forty Two]

Eff, it's not a matter of preference but of the nature of things,
Trans girls were born men but I call them 'sir' until they are operated and no longer men.

Why? How fucking hard is it just to call someone what they like? I don't get this way of thinking. Also, are checking people's genitals before you refer to them in the way they wish to be referred to? Because how else do you know?

It may or may not be hard, depending on the circumstances. As someone who doesn't care what someone "is" (man, woman, trans, something else) I also don't really care, nor do I think I should be legally compelled to care, what a person's "preferred pronoun" is -- I don't expect them to care about mine. I'm going to work, and going about my business - now I have to walk on eggshells and quiz people on their preferred pronouns? And, fuck, even asking a person what they prefer to be called could be considered a "microaggression" because I'm singling out them for that inquiry, whereas when I see a stereotypically cis-gendered person, I don't make that inquiry..... Also if the right to command a designation only applies to "trans" people, then it's unfair to everyone else. Shouldn't everyone be able to command the pronoun they like? People are inventing new words as fast as they can, xe, xer, xher, xis -- then they want to alter the rules of grammar -- "they" instead of "he" or "her" and all that. It's fine for language to change, and it's fine to accede to a person's request that you call them a new or invented pronoun. To suggest that a person can say "I'm not he, her, or they -- I'm 'legion'..." - and then everyone MUST remember to accede to that request -- maybe all sorts of requests -- one person wants xer, and another shim, or another they/them -- and on pain of being in violation of the law, everyone else has to cater to those requests?

No no. Not if they ask you to call them ma'am or zhe or she or whatever -- NYC considers that illegal, and will fine you. LOL.

If a pre-op tranny tells you to call it ma'am, then you better hop-to.

See this kind of thing is why I don't believe you are just arguing against the law, but rather have a problem with trans people that goes beyond that. You could have easily said "call them ma'am" but you chose to use "it" which is a way to dehumanise someone. It's ugly and unnecessary.

That wasn't my intent. We refer to babies as "it" when the sex is not known. I don't find that ugly. Them is incorrect grammar. When referring to a him, you don't use "them" (them is a plural pronoun).

Do I think there should be laws on this kind of speech? No, I don't actually. But I'd rather see someone arguing against it in a way that doesn't use outlandish scenarios, insults and sarcastic demands, because that just makes me embarrassed to be on the same side of the debate.

The problem is that this kind of thing just keeps on expanding. It's becoming a movement of compulsion and command which is very off-putting. Most people respond well to polite requests for accommodation. People tend to get a bit miffed if you start ordering them around, as if they have some primary obligation to cater to another person's wishes.

[piscator]

The man's got a point: Walking around in a suit and tie pretending you're a woman with a large adam's apple trapped in a man's body in drag amounts to a sundry and arbitrary list of demands on others.

If the occasion arises when someone presents me with a list of pronoun demands I don't feel comfortable with, I'm sure I'll either go with the demands of the social situation, or not, as my W2P sees fit.

That's all you're getting out of me.

[Forty Two]

The man's got a point: Walking around in a suit and tie pretending you're a woman with a large adam's apple trapped in a man's body in drag amounts to a sundry and arbitrary list of demands on others.

No, a law which purports to fine people for failing to use "xer" as a person's preferred pronoun after they've told you that they prefer "xer" is a command.

If the occasion arises when someone presents me with a list of pronoun demands I don't feel comfortable with, I'm sure I'll either go with the demands of the social situation, or not, as my W2P sees fit.

That's all you're getting out of me.

, and
I don't want anything out of you. This thread is not about the etiquette. If a person wants to be called him, her or xer and politely asks, then I'll call that person what they want to be called. What I object to is a law which would fine me for not doing so, and making it an affirmative obligation on me to inquire about people's preferred pronouns.

Look - take the example of women. It used to be that we had Mrs. and Miss. You did your best to pick the one that applied, and if you were wrong, then the woman would correct you and you'd go on. No fines involved. Then they added Ms. Women wanted a non-marital designation. Fine. Now, the default is Ms. -- you meet a woman, you say "Ms." And, if they want a different designation, then they tell you. That's all custom. No fines. What if a woman wants to be called Miss, and you forget and go with the default Ms. That's now a violation of the law? Not just a custom violation or breach of etiquette, but this is something the government fines and penalizes?

Etiquette rules would have people select Miss, Ms. or Mrs, or whatever they want. But, to make it a legal violation is government micromanagement in the extreme. The government is not the language police. And, there is no legitimate role of government to hand over the power to one person to command, under pain of fines, what fucking pronouns we use. That's what I object to.

[Brian Peacock]

Yeah, fuck that politeness shit right in the ear'ole.

[L'Emmerdeur]

For any who are interested in technical aspects of grammar, and why though the singular "they" may be a bugaboo of grammaticasters, it is in fact acceptable from a grammatical standpoint: "Singular 'they' and the many reasons why it’s correct | Motivated Grammar

[pErvinalia]

They would say that.

[Brian Peacock]

These are the jokes folks.