Happiness

[pErvinalia]

Our societies are not perfect, nor the humans in them, but they are the best going.

Really? I think happiness levels would be higher in some more traditional societies.

You may be right, certainly I've been in places where people have fuck all but goats and mud huts, who seemed more content than we do.

Why do you think that though?

Because simplicity is probably more likely to bring happiness than complexity is. We live in a world of abundance, yet complexity. I think the Buddhists must been on to something.

[pErvinalia]

Eat you gruel now like nice little kids everyone. There are millions of starving children that would overjoyed if they could have it

I used to hate that one. Like my Dad was really going to fly my uneaten pork chop over to Ethiopia so some starving kid could eat it. Serves Dad right for raising a rationalist.

[Audley Strange]

Our societies are not perfect, nor the humans in them, but they are the best going.

Really? I think happiness levels would be higher in some more traditional societies.

You may be right, certainly I've been in places where people have fuck all but goats and mud huts, who seemed more content than we do.

Why do you think that though?

Because simplicity is probably more likely to bring happiness than complexity is. We live in a world of abundance, yet complexity. I think the Buddhists must been on to something.

Okay, good. Both a reasonable answer and something to consider. The Buddhists (as far as I'm aware) think that suffering is caused by desire. I guess the more you have to desire the more you are going to suffer. Which brings me back to my point where one should be content rather than chase the dragon of the fleeting narcosis of "happiness". So perhaps the rejection of materialism is the way to go if you can't stop wanting.

[Coito ergo sum]

A key aspect of happiness, I think, although probably not the only key, is that happiness does not come from outside of you. Happiness is in your head. It is manufactured by the brain.

Wealth, power, sex, etc. -- they don't make you happy. Your brain makes you happy.

It's kind of like how your brain makes what you see and hear, and that what you see and here is not "actually" what is out there. Your brain puts together a partial picture of what is out there that your brain can use to get along ,but it is not "reality."

The same thing with happiness. It's all in the mind.

Think about it. Slaves and paupers have been happy, while kings, captains of industry and trust fund babies have committed suicide due to extreme sadness. The reverse is also true, of course. The point being, that the money, power, fame or whatever -- none of that "makes" anyone happy. People "make" themselves happy.

In my own life, that realization comes in the small things. When I was a teenager, I used to loathe yard work, and I thought it made me "unhappy." Now, however, in my middle-age, I love puttering around the yard, paying attention to detail, working up a sweat, taking care of stuff. I am happy doing that now. Why? It's the same work I did back then, but I was totally unhappy doing it then, and totally happy doing it now. Why? Because it's all in my mind. The work is neither good or bad -- and it has no "happiness" quality to it at all -- it just is. My brain decides if I feel happy about it.

So, while that realization may not actually help anyone, because it doesn't mean that a person is, as a result, going to be happy -- it does at least provide a person with a potential avenue to control a portion of it. One can stop looking outside oneself, to another person, to a thing, to a concept or to anything else outside of one's skull for that happiness - one can stop wasting one's time worrying about "getting" this and that in order be happy. One can then choose to be happy with the things one has and does, and let go of the rest.

[MiM]

In my own life, that realization comes in the small things. When I was a teenager, I used to loathe yard work, and I thought it made me "unhappy." Now, however, in my middle-age, I love puttering around the yard, paying attention to detail, working up a sweat, taking care of stuff. I am happy doing that now. Why? It's the same work I did back then, but I was totally unhappy doing it then, and totally happy doing it now. Why? Because it's all in my mind. The work is neither good or bad -- and it has no "happiness" quality to it at all -- it just is. My brain decides if I feel happy about it.

Here I believe might be a difference in that as a young lad you where told (by mummy or daddy) to do yard work, while now it's you who decide? That "subtle" difference I believe is pointed at in almost every text about how to keep people content (at work et.c.).

[Coito ergo sum]

In my own life, that realization comes in the small things. When I was a teenager, I used to loathe yard work, and I thought it made me "unhappy." Now, however, in my middle-age, I love puttering around the yard, paying attention to detail, working up a sweat, taking care of stuff. I am happy doing that now. Why? It's the same work I did back then, but I was totally unhappy doing it then, and totally happy doing it now. Why? Because it's all in my mind. The work is neither good or bad -- and it has no "happiness" quality to it at all -- it just is. My brain decides if I feel happy about it.

Here I believe might be a difference in that as a young lad you where told (by mummy or daddy) to do yard work, while now it's you who decide? That "subtle" difference I believe is pointed at in almost every text about how to keep people content (at work et.c.).

Well, there are a myriad ways this is the case. I used to hate washing the car, and it's so inexpensive to take the car to the car wash. But, I've changed, and now it "makes" me happy. I quote that because "it" doesn't make me happy. "I" make me happy.

Great movie quote -- Kate Gulden from the movie "One True Thing," says: "It's so much easier to be happy, my love. It's so much easier to choose to love the things that you have, and you have so much, instead of always yearning for what you're missing, or what it is you're imagining you're missing. It's so much more peaceful."

And, it is, really, so much easier to be happy. So much easier. I went decades thinking that happiness depended on the yearning and the striving and the attainment, and that I need X or Y or Z to be happy. Happiness is made by your mind.

Look at this South American slum:



I bet there are some happy people living there. If happiness was tied to things or even "quality of life" there would be no happy people there. Some of the people there, I bet, are happier than some people in Beverly Hills, CA.

[hadespussercats]

Audley, there have been any number of times when I've talked myself down from some neurotic cliff by reminding myself that there are people with war in their countries. But that sentiment has almost nothing to do with happiness. If events had turned out differently, I could be drowning right now in a freezing cold North Atlantic tide. I'm not. Should I feel happy for that? Seems bizarre to me that I would.

Yes, I say you should feel happy that you recognised as bad as things might have been for you they were worse for someone else and thus it stopped you from killing yourself. Hell I'm happy about that. However I was speaking of contentment. I said happiness is a fleeting emotional state earlier on.

What you say does not dispute that we still live in the best of available worlds Hades. Imagine you were on that cliff, your children had been shot, you had been raped and you had watched your husband be beaten to death by soliders? To extreme perhaps? Okay imagine then you were on that cliff, you were destitute, you were starving, it was 60 miles to the nearest drinkable water. Your situation would have been much worse, harder perhaps to compare to others tragedies.

Our societies are not perfect, nor the humans in them, but they are the best going. To me, we should be thankful for that. I think you should to, it seems to have saved your life any number of times.

I don't think contentment means, "Hey, at least I've I've got it better than those sorry folks." I don't think it comes from pity for others, or an understanding of historical and social developments, or... schadenfreude. I don't understand what this is about.

Certainly, having health and shelter and enough to eat are basic needs that many do without, and without those things it would be difficult to be happy or content. But waking up in the morning and seeing that my family hasn't been shot and all our possessions carried away in a cholera-laden monsoon... wait. Is this really the sort of thinking you're suggesting is healthy? I mean, I'll agree, it's better, but what does that have to do with contentment? I should revel in the fact that I'm better off than other people? That seems... pretty hateful to me.

[Jason]

Yep. It's hateful and it's ugly. It's also the basis for most of western-style consumerism. Why do people buy a new car when their old one is still working just fine? Because they don't want to be looked down on. Who looks down on someone who drives an older vehicle? Everyone else. It's a never-ending cycle - you'll always need a new iPhone every 6 months or so to keep up. Consumerism is driven by shadenfreuden. Though far more subtle than feeling good about yourself because your children weren't stolen from you in a night raid by some warlord in the Sudan to serve and die as child-soldiers, it's the same principle at work. Gamers who post their 'uber' system specs with each post they make because they put it in their signatures, people who drive Jaguars, people who drink StarBucks coffee.. keeping up with the Jones's. It's all about maintaining a false standard set by commerce so you don't feel bad about your life. As a bonus you can feel better than someone who can't afford a new car, iPhone, or StarBucks coffee.

[Robert_S]

Be happy that at least you're not Richard Cory.



Expectations are a big part of what causes unhappiness. My own and the ones I let people put on me when I'm not paying attention.

[hadespussercats]

Audley, just for clarity, my example of drowning wasn't a reference to some unrealized desire to kill myself. I've never been suicidal. It was just an example of bad fortune. I missed that past of your comment when I'd read earlier, and since it's structural to your argument, I wanted to clarify.

[hadespussercats]

Yep. It's hateful and it's ugly. It's also the basis for most of western-style consumerism. Why do people buy a new car when their old one is still working just fine? Because they don't want to be looked down on. Who looks down on someone who drives an older vehicle? Everyone else. It's a never-ending cycle - you'll always need a new iPhone every 6 months or so to keep up. Consumerism is driven by shadenfreuden. Though far more subtle than feeling good about yourself because your children weren't stolen from you in a night raid by some warlord in the Sudan to serve e and die as child-soldiers, it's the same principle at work. Gamers who post their 'uber' system specs with each post they make because they put it in their signatures, people who drive Jaguars, people who drink StarBucks coffee.. keeping up with the Jones's. It's all about maintaining a false standard set by commerce so you don't feel bad about your life. As a bonus you can feel better than someone who can't afford a new car, iPhone, or StarBucks coffee.

I do like a venti iced. Steal some milk in a go cup for the boy, go to the park to enjoy them... nice way to start a day.

[Rum]

As an observation having travelled widely in my younger days throughout Asia, India and the middle east, it is very clear that happiness and material wealth do not remotely relate to each other. Some of the happiest people I have ever met seemed to be also some of the poorest.

[FBM]

As an observation having travelled widely in my younger days throughout Asia, India and the middle east, it is very clear that happiness and material wealth do not remotely relate to each other. Some of the happiest people I have ever met seemed to be also some of the poorest.

Very

[Audley Strange]

Audley, just for clarity, my example of drowning wasn't a reference to some unrealized desire to kill myself. I've never been suicidal. It was just an example of bad fortune. I missed that past of your comment when I'd read earlier, and since it's structural to your argument, I wanted to clarify.

My apologies, I misunderstood.

[Audley Strange]

As an observation having travelled widely in my younger days throughout Asia, India and the middle east, it is very clear that happiness and material wealth do not remotely relate to each other. Some of the happiest people I have ever met seemed to be also some of the poorest.

This is true. However many of the people I've met in India Africa and the middle-east were the most beaten down people I have met and were also amongst the very poorest also.